Bible Pay

Poll

Which option would give BiblePay a chance at mass adoption and would you support the switch to a new algorithm?

Explore Proof-of-Giving II
12 (35.3%)
Explore simplifying PODC (proof-of-distributed-computing)
15 (44.1%)
Explore Proof-of-Orphan-Mining
0 (0%)
Explore IPFS (Interplanetary File System Mining)
0 (0%)
Abstain or make no changes
7 (20.6%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Voting closed: December 07, 2018, 06:02:22 pm

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  • way2
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2018, 04:12:41 pm »
Thank you for your answers to my questions Rob, that was extremely helpful!  I know they weren't easily answered and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and candor. 


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2018, 04:21:32 pm »
I'm not asking for credit, I don't brag about my contributions to the coin.  I'm not trying to goad you into an argument.   I acknowledge your skills and have consistently done so.  I have never asked to be a clone of any existing coin, if you misread that, then here is what I was saying.  It's far easier to bring an existing system into a coin than it is to code it from scratch and  vet all the possible scenarios that exist in the logic.

The questions I asked were in my view at times exposing short falls in the system.  I still see several loopholes (and have stated a few of them) and don't agree with your assessment that we will be able to sufficiently test a brand new system as I feel we'd need a ten or more fold increase in testers which would mean nearly half our active users would need to test.   The issue is you seem to believe we will see a sudden influx of both testers and users.  If you have knowledge of a contingency waiting to come, the community would benefit from that knowledge.  However, I don't see the path to such increases.  Finally, I stand by my position that even the best programmer won't be able to test for conditions they've not thought of.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 10:59:17 am »
I'm not asking for credit, I don't brag about my contributions to the coin.  I'm not trying to goad you into an argument.   I acknowledge your skills and have consistently done so.  I have never asked to be a clone of any existing coin, if you misread that, then here is what I was saying.  It's far easier to bring an existing system into a coin than it is to code it from scratch and  vet all the possible scenarios that exist in the logic.

The questions I asked were in my view at times exposing short falls in the system.  I still see several loopholes (and have stated a few of them) and don't agree with your assessment that we will be able to sufficiently test a brand new system as I feel we'd need a ten or more fold increase in testers which would mean nearly half our active users would need to test.   The issue is you seem to believe we will see a sudden influx of both testers and users.  If you have knowledge of a contingency waiting to come, the community would benefit from that knowledge.  However, I don't see the path to such increases.  Finally, I stand by my position that even the best programmer won't be able to test for conditions they've not thought of.

Thank you West for this and I want to say that I want to work with you closely on  identifying and mitigating any potential issues you might see in POG, for the greater good. 

I'm glad to know that you agree that this is not about either me or you being the smartest or first analyst to discover a flaw, its about us making a solid product for BiblePay, and even if it means that we discover the product not ready, so be it, I wont have my feelings hurt.

I think I have quite a different perspective of the POG vulnerabilities from the code standpoint and I think it will be very valuable for us to try to see each others perspective over in testnet.

So lets meet over there and try to come up with any attack vectors.

Currently from my standpoint I view POG as solid- I only know of one type of attack vector (the ability for a whale to cash out a sanc, create a bankroll of 300 5000' bills manually) and use that as a POG tithe edge over others, however this particular attack is going to be mitigated - the user will have a new command available (exec bankroll), empowering them to do the same thing as a feature - and diff will rise above the min_coin_amount during this whale attack making it useless until diff drops (another words by empowering the user with the same feature - no one has an edge). 

  After this - from my standpoint I cannot see any potential attack, from any scenario covering 1 wallet to multiwallets, or whales to small fish, and thats what we need to cover in testnet.

The code is not ready yet but should be ready by the evening - Ill make a post on the main forum then lets all meet there.

 


  • sunk818
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 03:38:22 pm »
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-II

What is min_coin_amount ? I understand max_tithe_amount but is min_coin_amount the change address needs to be in order to send the max_tithe_amount?

also, you mention default proclimit = 1 . Does this mean, this can be increased?

What happens if someone has a beefy computer with 128 threads. Can they use all 128 threads to mine? How does this affect the outcome? Won't they be the likely person to win the 20% and get a piece of the 80%?

Trying to understand how this is more green than PoDC?


  • sunk818
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2018, 03:41:36 pm »
Also, what happens to the rest of the month, if someone donates the entire monthly ceiling on the first day via PoG? Or say they donate 90% in the first day, how does difficulty play out? Does this kick the coin_age requirement up so newcomers can not participate?

What happens if you donate to the foundation (using the wallet address not PoG) for the entire ceiling?


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2018, 03:51:55 pm »
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-II

What is min_coin_amount ? I understand max_tithe_amount but is min_coin_amount the change address needs to be in order to send the max_tithe_amount?

also, you mention default proclimit = 1 . Does this mean, this can be increased?

What happens if someone has a beefy computer with 128 threads. Can they use all 128 threads to mine? How does this affect the outcome? Won't they be the likely person to win the 20% and get a piece of the 80%?

Trying to understand how this is more green than PoDC?

min_coin_amount is the minimum coin value that can be used for a tithe out of your coins.  If you go to coin control and take a look at your coins, pick one of higher value than min_coin_amount.

Change amount or change address doesnt come into play.

On genproclimit its set to 1 by default (as is now for POBH), but it can be increased if you want to be a reaper.  This is basically a solo miner with more threads.  Remember the reaper only gets 20% of the block however. 

On 128 threads, yes, except they will probably be competing against more pcs and laptops in this game (IE more exposure to the world), and also remember that its self defating to go higher in threads than 95% of your processor power (IE 20 threads probably gives you that utiliz. level).

Its more green than PODC like this:  With PODC,  We have 1 controller doing POBH per PODC user, and the equiv of 2000 (not exadurating) PCs out there doing PODC (I did the math on rac in POOM).  With POG, we have just 1 controller doing 1 thread per POG *user*, so its less energy per person, and in addition, we have some POG users only as sowers (not running as reapers).  I could have made it much greener with tier sleep levels, but I decided I wanted to error on the safe side (for anti 51% attacks) and let us go with beefier POW security so all POG users using the default genproclimit 1 actually mine right now.



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2018, 03:57:09 pm »
Also, what happens to the rest of the month, if someone donates the entire monthly ceiling on the first day via PoG? Or say they donate 90% in the first day, how does difficulty play out? Does this kick the coin_age requirement up so newcomers can not participate?

What happens if you donate to the foundation (using the wallet address not PoG) for the entire ceiling?

Great questions!

So first on donating the entire monthly ceiling on the first day, what would actually happen in the market microstructure, is as the original "pig" is trying to over-tithe, since we have a tithe_max of about 300 initially per tithe, after they donate about 5K lets say, the difficulty would skyrocket to something like 32000, and that would stop them (or slow them down) because now the max_tithe is only 30, so this person would not get very far.

As far as diff dropping, in the latter half of the day the diff would drop again.

You can get around the controls and donate directly to the foundation but if the tithe is not legal, the network wallet rules will not "induct" those tithes.  IE if someone tithes 10,000 by doing a sendmoney transaction it wont even be put in the pool.

You can type exec pogpool to see the exact mechanics as we go.

EDIT: Testnet is ready.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:04:15 pm by Rob Andrews »


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2018, 03:01:15 pm »
What is the formula for determining the three variables, Min_coin_age, Min_coin_amount and Max_tithe_amount?  I would like to better compute a few scenarios and exact-ish formula would be needed to do that.

Can an individual can tithe (can we please rename this to donate for our foreign users?) multiple times per day from the same wallet?  If so, does this tithe accumulate for the day, and for silly numbers, if they donated 10x 300 for 3000 and the rest of the users donated a cumulative total of 3000, would they then get half the reward?   How often is the difficulty calculated and is the monthly cap a rolling month or a 30 day fixed month?


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2018, 03:30:44 pm »
What is the formula for determining the three variables, Min_coin_age, Min_coin_amount and Max_tithe_amount?  I would like to better compute a few scenarios and exact-ish formula would be needed to do that.

Can an individual can tithe (can we please rename this to donate for our foreign users?) multiple times per day from the same wallet?  If so, does this tithe accumulate for the day, and for silly numbers, if they donated 10x 300 for 3000 and the rest of the users donated a cumulative total of 3000, would they then get half the reward?   How often is the difficulty calculated and is the monthly cap a rolling month or a 30 day fixed month?


On #1 :

// Tithe Parameter Ranges:

// min_coin_age  : 0 - 60 (days)
// min_coin_amount : 1 - 25000
// max_tithe_amount: 300 - 1 (descending)

The exact formula for min_coin_age:

Given the Tithe_Cap (410987 per month in testnet), take the total 24 hour donations divided by tithe_cap:  donations / tithe_cap, arrive at a Percent_Donated.  Multiply that percent * ceiling(0,60) (in this case the 60) and add that to the floor (0).  So another words, 50% donations mean min_coin_age 30.

For the min_coin_amount do exactly the same thing as above (compute a donation % for the current time) and then multiply * 25000, giving you for example 12,500 if we had 50% donations.

For max_tithe_amount descending, do exactly the same thing as above (compute a donation %), except now subtract it from 300 as this one is descending.


Let me answer the other question in the next post.





  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2018, 03:34:16 pm »
What is the formula for determining the three variables, Min_coin_age, Min_coin_amount and Max_tithe_amount?  I would like to better compute a few scenarios and exact-ish formula would be needed to do that.

Can an individual can tithe (can we please rename this to donate for our foreign users?) multiple times per day from the same wallet?  If so, does this tithe accumulate for the day, and for silly numbers, if they donated 10x 300 for 3000 and the rest of the users donated a cumulative total of 3000, would they then get half the reward?   How often is the difficulty calculated and is the monthly cap a rolling month or a 30 day fixed month?

A user can tithe an accumulating amount per day - yes.  If I donate 100 in hour 1, and 200 in hour 2, the pool will show 300 from Rob for todays span.

The total donated drives the tithe_weight per user.  So I dont know what you mean by half, but if I had 1000 in donations that would be a 10% share weight if you had 100 in donations you have a 1% share weight relative to me. 

The difficulty is calculating once per block, and we have a fixed day span of 205 blocks being regarded in the pool.  We really don't ever reset the pool however since the chain always rolls forward - on block #206, block #1 is forgotten.  So on block #512, biblepay is regarding block 256-512 as the PogPool blocks in the window.



  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2018, 03:44:19 pm »

On #1 :

// Tithe Parameter Ranges:

// min_coin_age  : 0 - 60 (days)
// min_coin_amount : 1 - 25000
// max_tithe_amount: 300 - 1 (descending)

The exact formula for min_coin_age:

Given the Tithe_Cap (410987 per month in testnet), take the total 24 hour donations divided by tithe_cap:  donations / tithe_cap, arrive at a Percent_Donated.  Multiply that percent * ceiling(0,60) (in this case the 60) and add that to the floor (0).  So another words, 50% donations mean min_coin_age 30.

For the min_coin_amount do exactly the same thing as above (compute a donation % for the current time) and then multiply * 25000, giving you for example 12,500 if we had 50% donations.

For max_tithe_amount descending, do exactly the same thing as above (compute a donation %), except now subtract it from 300 as this one is descending.

Thanks for the quick reply!