Bible Pay

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  • jmmc
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    • December 09, 2017, 05:54:33 am
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Economical model thoughts and current state
« on: February 09, 2019, 04:39:24 am »
I'm BBP supporter since almost the start of the project but I would not "invest" in BBP without being Christian and considering charity factor.
At the beginning I just took it like "fancy"  way howto support orphans, preach gospel via cryptocurrency project.  So here we are. 
I was buying most around ATH not much thinking about the project from investment PoV.
However I hoped that much more Christians world would grasp this idea.
I invested into this project something about 3 BTC when BTC was much more valuable  and tried to help the project from time to time.

Now BBP is dry. Hovering around price 4-6 sat. Funds of the initial investors (like me) are spent. It was pretty obvious during BBP spike yesterday. BBP up, BBP down to 4 sat.
I understand faith and things like that but how about finally admit that BBP was not based on sustainable principles but rather on denying them. I will list few issues:

1. Proof of (whatever) - why there is  so much effort around this, I can see no value added by constant changing consensus/reward algorithm but quite the opposite (confusion, new bugs, etc.). To me simple PoS would be the best. Mining times are over, maybe Bitcoin can keep it but I'm skeptical. BOINC is centralized and all other approaches seems awkward to me.
2. 10% - understanding support mission to orphans, but frankly this is not tithe because tithe is from profit. If you want to have model based on 10% from profit then build oracle, recalculate BBP to USD and if there is evaluation, then automatically cash 10% of that profit. Now it's more like pillaging the initial funds before we reach zero level. As this is not sustainable orphans will probably (unless God makes some miracle) not be helped in the future and investors will avoid this project.
3. Inflation/Deflation - BBP emission is higher than pace of adoption which necessarily leads to price crash. Again it would be nice to have self-adjusting emission model so that emission would adjust according to market price trend - probably connected to USD or at least BTC.
4. Misusing funds - in the past I've seen cases where thousands of dollars were approved for various non BBP or orphans-related activities (surprisingly to some slovak and other people)  without giving BBP or Jesus / Christianity any publicity.
5. Income side - BBP has no demand increasing utility

Simply summarized: I would rather like to see BBP as simplified PoS project supporting orphans from USD market value increase (we pay orphans with USD, don't we?)  and with strong demand increasing utility. Without that, I'm unable to see any long-term vision for BBP. Wake up! Now BBP is heading to it's crash. I believe Rob is a good guy but BBP really need some serious changes. God bless!





  • jmmc
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 07:59:21 am »
It was pretty obvious during BBP spike yesterday. BBP up, BBP down to 4 sat.
Oopps...It was pretty obvious during BTC spike yesterday. BTC up, BBP down to 4 sat.


  • sunk818
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    • April 24, 2018, 02:02:20 pm
Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 11:57:48 am »
Interesting thoughts. Your point 1 about BOINC and point 3 are in conflict. BOINC is centralized. If you control emission based on market price trends that is an outside force on the blockchain (centralized) like BOINC. Price can only be determined by whatever the exchange dictates. I prefer emission to stay on course and whatever the exchange dictates as price is whatever it is. It should not interfere with blockchain emission schedule.


Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 04:51:31 pm »
I'm BBP supporter since almost the start of the project but I would not "invest" in BBP without being Christian and considering charity factor.
At the beginning I just took it like "fancy"  way howto support orphans, preach gospel via cryptocurrency project.  So here we are. 
I was buying most around ATH not much thinking about the project from investment PoV.
However I hoped that much more Christians world would grasp this idea.
I invested into this project something about 3 BTC when BTC was much more valuable  and tried to help the project from time to time.

Now BBP is dry. Hovering around price 4-6 sat. Funds of the initial investors (like me) are spent. It was pretty obvious during BBP spike yesterday. BBP up, BBP down to 4 sat.
I understand faith and things like that but how about finally admit that BBP was not based on sustainable principles but rather on denying them. I will list few issues:

1. Proof of (whatever) - why there is  so much effort around this, I can see no value added by constant changing consensus/reward algorithm but quite the opposite (confusion, new bugs, etc.). To me simple PoS would be the best. Mining times are over, maybe Bitcoin can keep it but I'm skeptical. BOINC is centralized and all other approaches seems awkward to me.
2. 10% - understanding support mission to orphans, but frankly this is not tithe because tithe is from profit. If you want to have model based on 10% from profit then build oracle, recalculate BBP to USD and if there is evaluation, then automatically cash 10% of that profit. Now it's more like pillaging the initial funds before we reach zero level. As this is not sustainable orphans will probably (unless God makes some miracle) not be helped in the future and investors will avoid this project.
3. Inflation/Deflation - BBP emission is higher than pace of adoption which necessarily leads to price crash. Again it would be nice to have self-adjusting emission model so that emission would adjust according to market price trend - probably connected to USD or at least BTC.
4. Misusing funds - in the past I've seen cases where thousands of dollars were approved for various non BBP or orphans-related activities (surprisingly to some slovak and other people)  without giving BBP or Jesus / Christianity any publicity.
5. Income side - BBP has no demand increasing utility

Simply summarized: I would rather like to see BBP as simplified PoS project supporting orphans from USD market value increase (we pay orphans with USD, don't we?)  and with strong demand increasing utility. Without that, I'm unable to see any long-term vision for BBP. Wake up! Now BBP is heading to it's crash. I believe Rob is a good guy but BBP really need some serious changes. God bless!

PoS brings some unique problems that most PoS coins will quietly admit.  The biggest is how forks are resolved.  With Proof of Work, you have an objective measure to determine longest chain, with Proof of Stake there are some questions about how to break ties and the like.  These sort of issues will be more pronounced on a smaller coin and we'll have fewer resources to tackle them.

BBP faces the same issue that 99% of coins face, questionable utility.  Since our price varies substantially (we're susceptible to both value changes relative to Bitcoin, i.e., our price in Satoshi, as well as the value of Bitcoin itself).  We can easily see a 10% variation in price in the span of a day or less, so utilizing BBP for fiat transfers is a hard sell.  The Research (PoDC) angle doesn't really add value or utility, but is in my eyes a potentially valuable marketing tool.  The support of Orphans isn't a use case for end users but again is a potentially valuable marketing aspect.   Increasing utility is a VERY hard task, IPFS was one potential but with our limited user base not one we could likely leverage (Siacoin is one player in the file storage arena and even they aren't doing very well despite their name recognition).   Integration with Walmart or Subway isn't a solid use case as we're not stable enough price wise to make that practical at this time.  There was a proposal for a deflationary emission schedule but the issue there becomes in a free-falling market, you're only limiting new supply which potentially makes it harder for new users and only really provides price stability on the short term (as at some point it's got to cap out too).

Hopefully this spring will bring an improvement to the crypto markets at large and since we're still surviving where other MN coins are not, it could provide us some advantages just by having longevity.  The short term though, to me, should strive for stability, no more big new systems in main net, no huge development projects when we're unable to pay for them.  Just make what we have work, work better, incremental gains and wait for the overall market to improve and bring us up with that.  To me, the most significant impact on price has been the combination of unstability/uncertainty: the latest change has required re installs and we're still not sure what will happen to PoDC since if it's a Masternode vote, it's believed that Rob controls (not necessarily owns but has the de facto proxy) for the majority of the typically voting Masternodes; and the other factor affecting price is the lack of buyers as it's my belief a few well heeled buyers have likely previously kept the price afloat which empirical evidence would suggest is no longer the case.


  • jmmc
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 08:11:40 am »
I can see your points. I quite agree with both reply posts.

Major point here I want to emphasize is that the current economical model doesn't work. We can skip the rest for now as minor issues. But this one is the major one:

Lot of supply and no demand

Outflow is here (outflow is always easy - sell, donate, etc.) but without demand based on  serious utility / advantage any crypto project cycle is needed, otherwise it's a well without spring that gets dry in short time. Crypto bull market can bring some water into to well but that should not be the major resource.

Nothing related to mining / staking creates demand.  Nothing related to charity and donations create demands. All of that creates supply and value outflow only. This is actually problem of 99.9% of crypto projects (even those big ones). Shop acceptance actually doesn't help here much because again it doesn't create new demand. Demand can be only created by so me advantageous utility or by saving factor (like discount when you pay with crypto etc.).

BBP community should pray that this projects comes with some real world use case ideas that makes BBP worth investing and accumulating. Right now I can see none. Otherwise it is just about donating few extra bitcoins to orphans via over-complex masternode-based crypto network. It doesn't make sense and there is no value over using good old credit card.


  • sunk818
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    • April 24, 2018, 02:02:20 pm
Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 11:18:57 am »
> Nothing related to charity and donations create demands.

I joined BiblePay because of the charity and donation model. Then I saw the PoDC and thought using CPU for science tasks instead of wasteful hashing was a good selling point. If you're charity minded and/or environmentally minded, BiblePay has attractive features. I bought and staked for PoDC. I'm sure there's a lot of people in the same situation.


  • jmmc
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 04:11:24 pm »
> Nothing related to charity and donations create demands.

I joined BiblePay because of the charity and donation model. Then I saw the PoDC and thought using CPU for science tasks instead of wasteful hashing was a good selling point. If you're charity minded and/or environmentally minded, BiblePay has attractive features. I bought and staked for PoDC. I'm sure there's a lot of people in the same situation.

Same here. PoDC is in some way  better than wasteful mining although but it doesn't bring solid secuirty model for BBP emission. But that's for another discussion and now it's not important due to low price so no one even bothers to hack BOINC to steel some  more BBP.

I am totally pro crypto ideas believer however let's be frank. Biblepay has nothing to offer so far. Donations are done in USD, it's just one more additional (and wasteful) layer in all donation process.  I'm here because I like to have Christianity Crypto Focused project. But there is no value added (utility) so and that's what everyone here should focus. In terms of sponsoring children gofund or kickstarter campaign would do the same and even better - more seriously and predictably.  BBP needs value-added feature(s) to survive and to be able to sponsor orphans in the future.


  • sunk818
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 06:09:29 pm »
I asked for enhancement to prayer request where we can pray (write) for prayer requests. Person requesting would receive prayer responses via the wallet.

That would forward Christian values.


  • jmmc
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2019, 09:50:55 am »
I hope Rob has some miracle ace from God hidden in his sleeve otherwise BiblePay will crash this year like 98% of other absolutely useless crypto projects.


  • sunk818
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 10:28:59 am »
I hope Rob has some miracle ace from God hidden in his sleeve otherwise BiblePay will crash this year like 98% of other absolutely useless crypto projects.

I don't know why we have so much reliance on Rob. Its very important to build a community of users so can be the force to spread the news of BiblePay. I think that's the direction Rob is heading with Proof of Giving. There's a lot of questions and tweaks to be made, but I agree with the scale he is proposing and if done right can attract the volume of participants he expects. If the technology and algorithm is sound, there's a good opportunity to get some targeted marketing behind it.

Rob mentioned he has a Google AdWords campaign and a PoG pool reward (5k to 9k BBP) for new users


  • MIP
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 04:37:36 am »
There are many fronts and not-so-many resources.

On one side, we would like to keep the fight on the "use as a crypto" monetary case by adding all latest Dash improvements, and try to keep up with them.
On the other side, Rob has been, and will keep on working on additional practical use cases, like IPFS and the Stratis port proofs of concept. While results might take a while to show up, I am pretty sure that we will be able to deliver something interesting.


  • jmmc
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2019, 02:39:10 am »
One thing is to have an interesting lab project for a few team members, the other thing is to have a real world product that millions want to use daily because of its usefulness.


  • sunk818
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2019, 02:07:54 pm »
One thing is to have an interesting lab project for a few team members, the other thing is to have a real world product that millions want to use daily because of its usefulness.


I think PoG (Proof of Giving) is an interesting concept. It is complex and quirky in its own way, but a lot of iterations have made it a useful product. I think we need a solid product, and then we can start marketing it to the right people. BiblePay needs to be more UI focused changes for better adoption. I think the underlying code is there... the UI needs more work to make it super easy and friendly.


We need to pay some grandmas and do a micro study to see if it really is easy enough for grandma to do. There are some pain points like making bankroll (and making bankroll when your min coin value isn't good enough). But all of that can be solved in the UI with more refinement. PoG engine room is a great start and I think it can be further refined over time.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2019, 03:34:07 pm »
I asked for enhancement to prayer request where we can pray (write) for prayer requests. Person requesting would receive prayer responses via the wallet.

That would forward Christian values.

Thats a good idea, please put in github, so we have a record of it.  (Didnt know about it).



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Economical model thoughts and current state
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2019, 03:42:19 pm »
One thing is to have an interesting lab project for a few team members, the other thing is to have a real world product that millions want to use daily because of its usefulness.

I agree with Sun's point, that we do need a solid product first.  PODC was completely cool, but I still think it fell short in the new user adoption arena (and its not theoretically whale approved).

If POG can be made simple and solid over the next 90 days (since its really a concise thing, theoretically it doesnt need new UIs and dimensions in the wallet), we can then focus on rolling out the Christian economy features.

JMMC, there are Aces in the hole, big ones.  I can't talk about the big ones, but I promise to reveal the most mainstream use case by June, that I think finally gives BiblePay a practical set of features.  What I can reveal now about it is this includes a Christian keypair, rapture videos, object upvoting, and tipping.  Note that these things are not the Aces in the hole. 

I'm thinking the Christian Economy ideas can come into design alongside MIPs Dash Rebase time-frame. 

Imho, solid POG, a place to watch rapture videos, upvoting childrens letters, these things alone are very exciting for a Christian wallet.

The other things can be brought in later to rocket BiblePay after the early adopters get satisfied with us.

Over the very long term, I'm shooting for a 1 billion $ market cap, as I really don't think we deserve less than sponsoring every orphan waiting over 100 days on compassion.com.