Bible Pay

Poll

Which option would give BiblePay a chance at mass adoption and would you support the switch to a new algorithm?

Explore Proof-of-Giving II
12 (35.3%)
Explore simplifying PODC (proof-of-distributed-computing)
15 (44.1%)
Explore Proof-of-Orphan-Mining
0 (0%)
Explore IPFS (Interplanetary File System Mining)
0 (0%)
Abstain or make no changes
7 (20.6%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Voting closed: December 07, 2018, 06:02:22 pm

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  • Rob Andrews
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Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« on: November 29, 2018, 06:02:22 pm »
When voting please consider a non-technical investor who wants to mine- remember to consider a person that has a busy lifestyle that does not want to follow more than 1-2 steps before losing patience, and has no interest in learning any new acronyms.

With PODC - we would need to pull in developer resources to shield the user from acryonyms, and find a way to concentrate new user mining power to a boinc project with fair payment without exposing the user to technical terms and requiring them to monitor RAC on disparate sites.  We also have quite a bit of infrastructure to support PODC: supporter pools, diagnostic tools, help desk answers, forum posts, etc.  Consider the total barrier of entry and ongoing maintenance per user and for the codebase.  Also consider the risks if BOINC changes the code, the interface, breaks or gets hacked.



With POG II - we would move back to our Proof-of-bible-hash style mining, on generally one machine per user (IE tither).  People would be rewarded with mining rewards in a "pool" depending on how much they tithe to the orphan foundation per day.  This solution would be more of a one-click setup, with the only decision needed by the end user to either manually tithe or set up an automatic tithe.  The maintenance should technically be lower for both user questions and the IT codebase.  There is not a chance of third party site being hacked or an oracle requirement.  The 51% risk appears to be low (the same as PODC or lower, as long as sleep capability is well designed).  One potentially large side benefit:  Being possibly the first crypto with an integrated pool - and not requiring third party pools.
(Rob recently added a proof-of-giving difficulty algorithm to address the top 2 POG problems:  Monthly tithe cap to prevent a massive monthly dump, and preventing a hacker from using a tithe script attack).  With these two improvements, voting is being re-evaluated.
Please read this wiki:
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-II
And this wiki:
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-for-Beginners



With POOM - we decentralize our orphan sponsorships out to the individual miners.  The miners are rewarded with an amount of biblepay that is carved out of the heat mining budget in relationship to their monthly private commitment amount.  The downside to POOM is this requires a centralized API at orphanstats.com, and biblepay has the ability to log in and audit individual user compassion accounts.  The plus is its very green, and diverts electric costs over to orphan sponsorships.




With IPFS - we require each user to make firewall rule changes, run a flavor of an IPFS server, allocate a portion of the hard drive, and we have the sanctuaries grade each miner on file hosting quality.  The downside to this is:  IPFS is still volatile, sometimes crashing on the pool server, the interface may change, the setup for a miner would be complicated, and we have no documentation for this complete yet, and we haven't finished the proof of concept.  The positive side is its futuristic.


  • sunk818
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2018, 08:50:43 pm »
If you had an embedded BOINC manager in BiblePay QT, then new users could register and start crunching with fewer steps. All the stuff with CPID registration can be automated. PoDC Updates can be used to send pending registrants the 1 BBP they need to register their CPID. If there are 20 pending registrants, then the next round of PoDC updates sends a cumulative 20 BBP amongst all submitting PoDC updates. Or make CPID registration cost 0.001 BBP so it costs even less BBP during PoDC updates.


  • sunk818
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2018, 12:50:44 am »
After having some time handholding someone on Discord on PoDC, staking requirements, etc, I do acknowledge PoDC configuration is difficult for some people to grasp. I think PoG has potential, but if you decide to implement, it has to be done conservatively. This is why I'm pushing for PoG replacing PoBH first. PoDC could eventually be replaced too, but there's a lot of vested individuals. If you're going to alienate PoDC miners, you need at as much automated donations coming in through PoG to offset the PoDC attrition and the staked BBP that leaves with it. If you're going to set a ceiling on the monthly donation amount, perhaps PoG replacing PoBH can work.


  • BBP537
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2018, 06:02:55 am »
I support a POG approach. Not only can PODC be difficult to understand, but it is not accessible to everyone either because of the high RAC requirements. I'm a new user who has been crunching numbers on BOINC for weeks with a low-end machine running Linux and I still have yet to earn the least little bit of BBP because my RAC never got higher than 97 due to a couple of power failures and such.

I would be more than happy to participate in a system that rewards you based on your giving rather than being based on who can crunch the most numbers because they have the best computer. Tithing is a small price to pay in order to be able to participate in the rewards of mining along with everyone else and by tithing I still get to help people the same way I would by crunching numbers for cancer except that the help is now and not some future maybe that might happen if I crunch numbers long enough.

Besides all this, I've noticed that the general consensus seems to be that if we let go of PODC then we will lose the "we fight cancer" mantra. So what? We aren't the only ones with that mantra. It's not that unique. Gridcoin, Curecoin, MedicCoin and FoldingCoin all have the same mantra and so there a number of currencies for people to choose from. POG, however, IS unique and it is what will make BBP stand out from the rest. And, you know what? We still get to keep the basic underlying mantra that we HELP PEOPLE through tithing.

Also, I've seen the argument be advanced somewhere that they don't think POG will gain us a significant amount of followers enough to make the change worth it, but simply staying the way things are won't make a significant impact either. So, it's well worth the risk to try something new and innovative, especially when I've just proven that even if you make things easier with PODC, you will still be excluding an entire portion of potential followers who can't participate because they are too poor to afford a decent PC. Isn't the whole point of BBP to help the poor, or is it only to cater to investors, and those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo? I will leave that for voters to decide for themselves in good conscience. Thanks for allowing me to comment.


  • way2
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2018, 05:37:12 pm »
How would this proposal impact sell side pressure?  If it results in a significant increase of sell side pressure, you should see a reduction in BBP value per coin.  This would mean the dollar value per month going to charity would remain the same because it is based on the amount of coins purchased in the marketplace.  However, the value of each person's holding would be reduced because of the spot price reduction.  This would hurt people that currently have large holdings. 



  • talisman
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2018, 04:54:02 pm »
I support a POG approach. Not only can PODC be difficult to understand, but it is not accessible to everyone either because of the high RAC requirements. I'm a new user who has been crunching numbers on BOINC for weeks with a low-end machine running Linux and I still have yet to earn the least little bit of BBP because my RAC never got higher than 97 due to a couple of power failures and such.

I would be more than happy to participate in a system that rewards you based on your giving rather than being based on who can crunch the most numbers because they have the best computer. Tithing is a small price to pay in order to be able to participate in the rewards of mining along with everyone else and by tithing I still get to help people the same way I would by crunching numbers for cancer except that the help is now and not some future maybe that might happen if I crunch numbers long enough.

Besides all this, I've noticed that the general consensus seems to be that if we let go of PODC then we will lose the "we fight cancer" mantra. So what? We aren't the only ones with that mantra. It's not that unique. Gridcoin, Curecoin, MedicCoin and FoldingCoin all have the same mantra and so there a number of currencies for people to choose from. POG, however, IS unique and it is what will make BBP stand out from the rest. And, you know what? We still get to keep the basic underlying mantra that we HELP PEOPLE through tithing.

Also, I've seen the argument be advanced somewhere that they don't think POG will gain us a significant amount of followers enough to make the change worth it, but simply staying the way things are won't make a significant impact either. So, it's well worth the risk to try something new and innovative, especially when I've just proven that even if you make things easier with PODC, you will still be excluding an entire portion of potential followers who can't participate because they are too poor to afford a decent PC. Isn't the whole point of BBP to help the poor, or is it only to cater to investors, and those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo? I will leave that for voters to decide for themselves in good conscience. Thanks for allowing me to comment.

First of all, welcome to the community !

Getting started with PODC may be a bit complex and painful, but there are people eager to help out starters (or experimenters) on our discord. I myself owe them a lot. I see you are upset with what your machine crunches out; please know there are many ways to kickstart BOINCing, including free cloud instances from Amazon and such. If you fail to succeed in them, I will be more than happy to assign a couple of my cpu cores to your account for a while so that you start seeing BBP coming your way. All you have to do is share with me your weak account key - don't worry, I cannot make any changes to your account with that key, apart from adding machines  ;)

We all want to have more and happy members in this team. And I respect everyone here, even Slovakia - who is known to have a devilish temper :)

All I would hope for in return is similar respect; not to me but to the entire ecosystem with its stake holders. I am a stake holder, with thousands of USD invested into BBP. Any proposal that would destroy the market price, including removal of the staking requirement, is a proposal I cannot support. I want to help the orphans, contribute to science, and make money if possible. But lose money? God forbid.


  • BBP537
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 02:36:37 pm »
First of all, welcome to the community !

Getting started with PODC may be a bit complex and painful, but there are people eager to help out starters (or experimenters) on our discord. I myself owe them a lot. I see you are upset with what your machine crunches out; please know there are many ways to kickstart BOINCing, including free cloud instances from Amazon and such. If you fail to succeed in them, I will be more than happy to assign a couple of my cpu cores to your account for a while so that you start seeing BBP coming your way. All you have to do is share with me your weak account key - don't worry, I cannot make any changes to your account with that key, apart from adding machines  ;)

We all want to have more and happy members in this team. And I respect everyone here, even Slovakia - who is known to have a devilish temper :)

All I would hope for in return is similar respect; not to me but to the entire ecosystem with its stake holders. I am a stake holder, with thousands of USD invested into BBP. Any proposal that would destroy the market price, including removal of the staking requirement, is a proposal I cannot support. I want to help the orphans, contribute to science, and make money if possible. But lose money? God forbid.

Thanks for the welcome and support! You have some valid concerns as a stake holder with money on the line. However, aren't they speculative concerns? What makes you so certain the market price would crash? And, what makes you so certain that even if it did have a short term correction due to the change that it would not then perform strongly as a result of the change after that?


  • talisman
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2018, 03:53:13 pm »
Thanks for the welcome and support! You have some valid concerns as a stake holder with money on the line. However, aren't they speculative concerns? What makes you so certain the market price would crash? And, what makes you so certain that even if it did have a short term correction due to the change that it would not then perform strongly as a result of the change after that?

I do not speculate, I calculate :)

The amount of BBP staked today due to PODC is well over 100M.

If PODC is gone, stake requirement will also be gone. It is only logical to assume some of the holders will sell off their BBP then. (Yes, some will bury it into masternodes, but we cannot assume all will do that.)

Any sales with today's weak buy board will push the price down (3 satoshis or less).

It is hoped that POG-2 will bring in cash (via new users), but as said, that is hope. There is not even an estimate on how many new users will bring in how much cash.

I understand and agree with the notion of a drop in the short term which would bring in growth for the long term; but we need to clarify what is short term and what is long term. This is the crypto world, and most people in this world would say one year is long term. That is a definition I tend to agree with. If we are on the same page about the term, then fine - I can hold on to my coins for a year for a rise back to 30+ satoshis (That was where I jumped on the boat)  ;)

Having said that, POG-2 may be tuned to promote staking  further, such that longer-term hodlers of coins get a bigger return when they tithe. This would reduce the sell pressure created by PODC staking gone. This however, would be real life repeating itself here: "rich gets richer". Well, I guess we cannot really escape basic principles of life even in the crypto world :)


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2018, 04:49:28 pm »
I do not speculate, I calculate :)

The amount of BBP staked today due to PODC is well over 100M.

If PODC is gone, stake requirement will also be gone. It is only logical to assume some of the holders will sell off their BBP then. (Yes, some will bury it into masternodes, but we cannot assume all will do that.)

Any sales with today's weak buy board will push the price down (3 satoshis or less).

It is hoped that POG-2 will bring in cash (via new users), but as said, that is hope. There is not even an estimate on how many new users will bring in how much cash.

I understand and agree with the notion of a drop in the short term which would bring in growth for the long term; but we need to clarify what is short term and what is long term. This is the crypto world, and most people in this world would say one year is long term. That is a definition I tend to agree with. If we are on the same page about the term, then fine - I can hold on to my coins for a year for a rise back to 30+ satoshis (That was where I jumped on the boat)  ;)

Having said that, POG-2 may be tuned to promote staking  further, such that longer-term hodlers of coins get a bigger return when they tithe. This would reduce the sell pressure created by PODC staking gone. This however, would be real life repeating itself here: "rich gets richer". Well, I guess we cannot really escape basic principles of life even in the crypto world :)

I just wanted to quickly jump in and add a distinction to the conversation regarding "rich get richer" vs POG2:

First differences between algos:

Proof-of-stake:  Entire free balance in stake * interest_component = interest_earnings (Rich definitely get richer based on total balance)
Proof-of-stake BiblePay:  62% of our money supply is tied up in Sancs, so 38% of money supply is available to "stake" a reward
Proof-of-Giving2:  Instead of basing the pool weight on the sowers amount_in_stake (this would be considered the unlocked coin_amount*age) , we base the pool weight on :  Tithe amount given with a required Spent coin > than difficulty level.

Notice the difference here:  In Scenario A, we reward a user entirely by the proven unlocked stake balance.
In Scenario B, we base the tithe_weight on the TITHED AMOUNT, and this amount must be spent out of a coin meeting the Difficulty requirements of the round.

Yes, I admit that richer users will have more free coins to tithe with, but note that the Actual act of tithing, the actual amount tithed drives your tithe_weight (not your available stake weight).  And note that in POG2, you must stake a coin and spend your coin age (so this cannot be repeated over and over until the coin ages again).  Also note that since the coin value must be greater than the tithe amount, one who spends a large coin will give up all of its age for quite a long period giving others in our ecosystem a long chance to tithe.

I don't have a scientific study of this effect, but if I were to guess I would "assume" forcing the spending of a single required coin will cause a whale to lose at least 50% of the benefit of (having whale resources available, this is because with POS you can use as many coins necessary to achieve
 total coin*age, where in POG you need one specific aged coin > min_amount for the round - and once its spent it is out for a while).  Remember the whales only have 38% of the money supply since they have the sancs tying up their capital....  EDIT:  More of a refined thought; to demonstrate this in contrast to POS:  With an average difficulty level of 650 in POG2,  you need to spend a 6 day old coin of value > 2500 but you can only tithe up to 270 from that coin.  So coins don't go as far as POS - and ultimately weight is based on what you tithed.




« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 07:05:31 pm by Rob Andrews »


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 11:38:25 am »
PoG if it were to be selected (which I really feel is the wish of the Dev) one issue I see is it would require a long test period as it's a very novel solution.  The issue is we don't have very many users, and very very few participate in the test net.  So my fear is there will be loopholes and bugs that we won't catch but someone will exploit.  And my real fear is there will be many such bugs (as it's a novel system and having eight or ten people test it won't expose nearly enough issues), which could mean a series of exploits (and disproportionate gains for the exploiters) followed by hot-fixes and unplanned mandatory releases which could put our markets off line.

In short, even if PoG is the next billion dollar idea, the BBP community lacks the resources to adequately test it.


  • talisman
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 04:59:12 pm »
PoG if it were to be selected (which I really feel is the wish of the Dev) one issue I see is it would require a long test period as it's a very novel solution.  The issue is we don't have very many users, and very very few participate in the test net.  So my fear is there will be loopholes and bugs that we won't catch but someone will exploit.  And my real fear is there will be many such bugs (as it's a novel system and having eight or ten people test it won't expose nearly enough issues), which could mean a series of exploits (and disproportionate gains for the exploiters) followed by hot-fixes and unplanned mandatory releases which could put our markets off line.

In short, even if PoG is the next billion dollar idea, the BBP community lacks the resources to adequately test it.

+1, right on the money again   ;)


  • way2
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 08:11:36 pm »
+2  Well said!


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 10:51:53 am »
PoG if it were to be selected (which I really feel is the wish of the Dev) one issue I see is it would require a long test period as it's a very novel solution.  The issue is we don't have very many users, and very very few participate in the test net.  So my fear is there will be loopholes and bugs that we won't catch but someone will exploit.  And my real fear is there will be many such bugs (as it's a novel system and having eight or ten people test it won't expose nearly enough issues), which could mean a series of exploits (and disproportionate gains for the exploiters) followed by hot-fixes and unplanned mandatory releases which could put our markets off line.

In short, even if PoG is the next billion dollar idea, the BBP community lacks the resources to adequately test it.


Well in general this is good as the need for testing is critical, however we don't "lack the resources to adequately test it".

We need to put it in testnet, invite more than 8 testers (like 25), we need to cover every test case - and add every possible exploit.

To address the resource issue, it is possible to test it as what database programmers do (in the case of data management companies) is they write a stress test program and theoretically stress the system to exploit what conditions we think are missing - say for example we only have 10 testers, then we need to write a program to simulate the real life transactional activity of 250 users - then we would feel a lot better about it.

I think in addition to that we can phase this in two phases.  We go live with POG in POBH only then stay with it for a quarter and fix any critical issues before we attempt to transition from PODC to POG (during the second mandatory).


  • talisman
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 01:48:33 pm »
I think in addition to that we can phase this in two phases.  We go live with POG in POBH only then stay with it for a quarter and fix any critical issues before we attempt to transition from PODC to POG (during the second mandatory).

That would be a good approach; I believe Sunk also supports this idea. We have nothing to lose when replacing POBH with POG. If this is successful, I will also support a change to the budget proportions of the algos (i.e., a reduction of PODC share and an increase of POG share).


  • thesnat21
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Re: Mass Adoption for BiblePay II
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 02:24:59 pm »
My only concern with using it on the POBH side is it directly competes with PODC..

PODC combines coins into one for the updates, so only folks not working on PODC could participate in POG, this would need to be addressed somehow.