Bible Pay

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  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2018, 06:16:48 am »
The 15 minute window question:

Currently, but my understanding, for the first 15 minutes, the only miners that can solve a block are ones with Mag (i.e., PoDC miners).  After 15 minutes, that restriction is lifted and anyone can mine.  Additionally, a single miner currently cannot mine more than one out of a certain number of blocks (8 sticks in my mind but I don't have it handy in my notes).

Under this proposal, what if any mining restrictions are proposed.  I would think no restrictions would quickly put us in a similar position.  I one point it was suggested (during the tiers discussion which appears tiers are no longer part of the equation), that only members of a tier could mine without restriction.   Is the plan to retain some form of both restrictions (the class, i.e., PoG members only for some time and the frequency, i.e., a miner is only allowed to mine one of out every "x" blocks")?  That said, I would see value in both.  Additionally, I would see some merit in having the exclusive period being somehow related to the tithe_weight to reduce the impact of someone getting the entire exclusive mining window with a minimum tithe.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2018, 08:02:00 am »
The 15 minute window question:

Currently, but my understanding, for the first 15 minutes, the only miners that can solve a block are ones with Mag (i.e., PoDC miners).  After 15 minutes, that restriction is lifted and anyone can mine.  Additionally, a single miner currently cannot mine more than one out of a certain number of blocks (8 sticks in my mind but I don't have it handy in my notes).

Under this proposal, what if any mining restrictions are proposed.  I would think no restrictions would quickly put us in a similar position.  I one point it was suggested (during the tiers discussion which appears tiers are no longer part of the equation), that only members of a tier could mine without restriction.   Is the plan to retain some form of both restrictions (the class, i.e., PoG members only for some time and the frequency, i.e., a miner is only allowed to mine one of out every "x" blocks")?  That said, I would see value in both.  Additionally, I would see some merit in having the exclusive period being somehow related to the tithe_weight to reduce the impact of someone getting the entire exclusive mining window with a minimum tithe.
Oh your talking about the late_block_threshhold (the 15 mins); (I couldn't figure out what you meant before); so for everyone else the late block threshhold is the amount of time that must pass in the current round of POBH heat mining where the block is about to be late, and we lower the difficulty of the block (by 80%) - this allows the block to be solved easier, and then the chain continues.  We have that in prod now.

So as far as tiers, they were removed to simplify this algorithm (they originally existed when 'gaming' was an issue - but with the uncertainty principle in the proposal they were removed for simplicity).

I envision in this latest version, everyone will heat mine all the time - no restrictions.  This is for security; I was thinking, since we would no longer have cpids, we would lose the Last 4 distinct cpid rule, therefore we would have no protection from cpids, hence the reason for beefing up security.

"No restrictions point us in a similar position" (Of having botnets).  Well financially - it would be slown down (in relation to the old POBH algo where the POBH botnet owner made 100% on a solo mined block - ) if one is only paid 20% you would think they would not be funded to create unlimited hashpower nodes;                                                       
     
      We will also use the miners tithe_weight to influence the hashpower - (this was in the original version).
The miners tithe_weight will adjust the ability to solve a heat mined block by influencing the target hash by 1-100% (according to their pool tithe_weight).




« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 07:37:48 pm by Rob Andrews »


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2018, 09:03:14 am »
Thanks for the positive support.

Although I think we possibly could have improved POG enough for it to work, I really didn't like the out-of-line high-tithe percentage potential it had (IE causing the monthly dump).

In light of the popular view, I'm going to shelve this technology for a while in favor of other endeavors.

I'll also add weight to prioritizing PODC easy adoption technical features.

Thanks for the exercise all, it was a net gain for our arsenal from a wisdom standpoint.


  • sunk818
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2018, 11:04:32 am »
Thanks for the positive support.

Although I think we possibly could have improved POG enough for it to work, I really didn't like the out-of-line high-tithe percentage potential it had (IE causing the monthly dump).

In light of the popular view, I'm going to shelve this technology for a while in favor of other endeavors.

I'll also add weight to prioritizing PODC easy adoption technical features.

Thanks for the exercise all, it was a net gain for our arsenal from a wisdom standpoint.

This dev modified PoW he calls it Hybrid Proof-of-Work. Details of the algorithm are on page 15. He believes an ARMy of Raspberry Pi can secure the blockchain with the various rules in place. My thought is that CPID can be removed and these other rules can be put in as a replacement. Something to mull over...
http://cdn.getlynx.io/2018-06-18_Lynx_Whitepaper.pdf


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2018, 02:08:12 pm »
This dev modified PoW he calls it Hybrid Proof-of-Work. Details of the algorithm are on page 15. He believes an ARMy of Raspberry Pi can secure the blockchain with the various rules in place. My thought is that CPID can be removed and these other rules can be put in as a replacement. Something to mull over...
http://cdn.getlynx.io/2018-06-18_Lynx_Whitepaper.pdf

Thanks a lot... checking it out.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2018, 02:42:04 pm »
Thanks a lot... checking it out.
Man, it's almost like he was signing his own last will and testament when he wrote a couple of those paragraphs, lol.  "Coin has been hacked, in a way where its like taking 10* the money out of the atm", "Exchanges are advised to require 200 confirms", but no on a more serious note, it does offer a couple ingenious ideas, I cant say I would go so far as to claim groundbreaking, as I think we have pondered most of the individual aspects inside this algorithm before.  The POS coin-age provides the source for the distinct miner list (so that unlimited hashpower cant attack during a 51% attack- similar to our use of cpids), the last 2 characters of the blockhash to provide unique solving, the low reward for POW (similar to our 10% POBH reward).  This appears to be a relatively novel way of rewarding POS rewards in a POW (low-energy) environment.  Similar to how we force the energy consumption to be low on our controller wallets but reward the lions share out to the BOINC users. 

I'm thinking we should take some time to really evaluate every potential technology out in the world, including Cardanos whitepapers, and really sit down and design a pie-in-the-sky potential algorithm to back up PODC in case we ever need it.  Off the top of my head, I keep thinking of POSE as one (proof-of-service), where we link a users Proof-of-stake (IE an aged UTXO) to a users dynamic IP- and create an internal list of online miners who are actually full nodes.  That could be one useful way to reward users in a hybrid pose-pow-pos environment.

I'm going to do some deeper research into the latest and lets start thinking in a more groundbreaking way.
At one time, we had an amazon storefront and (for the most part) no one used our crypto to buy anything.  Lets also consider storefront integration (as potentially linked to mining).  Or decentralized slices of fiat payments linked to mining.



  • sunk818
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2018, 11:26:24 pm »
(so that unlimited hashpower cant attack during a 51% attack- similar to our use of cpids)

What's nice about the Hybrid PoW approach is that it is self contained within the blockchain and biblepay code. Eliminates the need for CPID.



  • sunk818
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2018, 11:32:40 pm »
If you want help with storefront integration (I ran an eBay & web shop for 10+ years), so I can be a subject matter expert. I've been wanting to submit a proposal for BiblePay t-shirt fundraiser accepting BiblePay and donate profits to Compassion.com in the form of sponsorships


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2018, 01:09:13 pm »
If you want help with storefront integration (I ran an eBay & web shop for 10+ years), so I can be a subject matter expert. I've been wanting to submit a proposal for BiblePay t-shirt fundraiser accepting BiblePay and donate profits to Compassion.com in the form of sponsorships

Ok, sounds good, let's try to think about a two pronged approach.  I think we still need someone to study all altcoin deals with existing merchants- they can be found in bitcointalk threads about adding successful storefront checkouts.

If someone can find us one that sells a Christian product we could contact them and try to integrate as well.

The other prong is something id like to discuss soon about us creating an API.



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2018, 01:32:20 pm »
What's nice about the Hybrid PoW approach is that it is self contained within the blockchain and biblepay code. Eliminates the need for CPID.

I partially agree, but there are a couple things that can also be gamed in hybrid POW systems.  In classic POS, where coin-age is rewarded, people can split stakes deliberately and keep an old coin to stake more often.  This can be mitigated in systems that require coin_value*age (to this day I think only the interest bearing coins do this, as the coin_value*age = interest rate reward).  The problem I see in Lynx is someone could still split the wallet and have twice the chance of solving a block (given enough capital - in their case they wont financially - because you only get 1 lynx - but that means its useless to be a distinct pointer to a user, which is what we wanted for more advanced use cases).  So we would need to be careful if we ever go with a hybrid solution to financially reward with an incentive to people who tend to re-stake the same coins (IE something that promotes consolidated wallets).  If that ID could be used as an identity, say for instance a pointer to a reputation score that could also be used for voting weight in a Christian content economy (IE voting on Christian videos or content).  (In the case of lynx the ID is just a pointer to a coin > 1000 of a certain age, but there is no guarantee one does not have 10 wallets). 




  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2018, 08:23:29 am »
For future investigation - a potential end-to-end solution for POG:

1.  POG Difficulty algorithm dynamically gyrates from .01 - 65535
2.  Difficulty dictates minimum_coin_age, minimum_coin_amount, and maximum_tithe_amount accepted inside POG stake
3.  The coin staked must be greater in value than the tithe amount (IE the staked coin is used to pay the tithe) and the tithe must be staked by one coin only
4.  POG Difficulty regulates the maximum tithes per month to be accepted (approx 4 million max tithes per month decreasing at the current deflation rate)
5.  Remove uncertainty principle, make pool rewards certain again
6.  Add a tithe helper dialog that shows  the individual max tithe amount based on all owned coins (or a label)

Pros:

1.  Can not be scripted to be exploited based on time of profitability
2.  Pool will not collect more than the max tithe amount per month (preventing dilution)
3.  Does not directly make the rich richer (as the individual coin is a random cross section of BiblePay) - in contrast to POS (where the highest coin_amount*age stakes the most coins and money)

All credit to Yeshua.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 09:04:45 am by Rob Andrews »


  • thesnat21
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2018, 10:50:23 am »
For future investigation - a potential end-to-end solution for POG:

1.  POG Difficulty algorithm dynamically gyrates from .01 - 65535
2.  Difficulty dictates minimum_coin_age, minimum_coin_amount, and maximum_tithe_amount accepted inside POG stake
3.  The coin staked must be greater in value than the tithe amount (IE the staked coin is used to pay the tithe) and the tithe must be staked by one coin only
4.  POG Difficulty regulates the maximum tithes per month to be accepted (approx 4 million max tithes per month decreasing at the current deflation rate)
5.  Remove uncertainty principle, make pool rewards certain again
6.  Add a tithe helper dialog that shows  the individual max tithe amount based on all owned coins (or a label)

Pros:

1.  Can not be scripted to be exploited based on time of profitability
2.  Pool will not collect more than the max tithe amount per month (preventing dilution)
3.  Does not directly make the rich richer (as the individual coin is a random cross section of BiblePay) - in contrast to POS (where the highest coin_amount*age stakes the most coins and money)

All credit to Yeshua.

Interesting, this would alleviate some of the "too much to dump" issues,  I suppose the monthly budget could be used to "fill the gap" between the tithe and the required orphan funds.

#3: The coin staked must be greater in value than the tithe amount (IE the staked coin is used to pay the tithe) and the tithe must be staked by one coin only

I'm not understanding the "tithe must be staked by one coin only" part, could you elaborate?


I'd need more info on the pool rewards,  (how they are calculated / split,  will it be like now where POW(POBH) is somewhat "random", and would get harder as difficulty increases)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:56:44 am by thesnat21 »


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2018, 11:35:32 am »
Interesting, this would alleviate some of the "too much to dump" issues,  I suppose the monthly budget could be used to "fill the gap" between the tithe and the required orphan funds.

#3: The coin staked must be greater in value than the tithe amount (IE the staked coin is used to pay the tithe) and the tithe must be staked by one coin only

I'm not understanding the "tithe must be staked by one coin only" part, could you elaborate?


I'd need more info on the pool rewards,  (how they are calculated / split,  will it be like now where POW(POBH) is somewhat "random", and would get harder as difficulty increases)
Yes, I think one step further is to use the current deflating getgovernanceinfo_charity_budget at 50% as a tithe_cap_max (Ill add this to the POG 2 wiki)  this is about 3.2 mil currently.

So on the coin staked must be greater in value, what Im thinking here is - this is a way to ensure all both rich and poor can participate (not seeking coin*age, but seeking single coins that may be spent on tithing, keeping this algo fair for every newbie or small sower), anyway here is an example: If you go into coin control, and take a look at your current coin values and ages, you will probably see a few 4,000~ values (if you have a sanc) and ages around 7-30 days old (maybe).

So the goal is if POG_DIFFICULTY = 1000,  the minimum_coin_age would be 7 days, and the minimum_coin_amount would be 100, so in order to tithe you need to spend the coin from your wallet that is older than 7 days old, and lets say that coin is 4000 bbp, then you could tithe Up to the maximum_tithe_amount (200bbp for that diff level).  In this case you could tithe.

The part about tithe must be staked by one coin means you cannot tithe based on 5-10 coins, you must tithe from that one coin.  So if you want to send in 200 bbp, that one coin must be > 200 bbp by itself.  This prevents the script kiddies from exploiting.

So we end up spending single coins for tithing (if we have them).



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2018, 04:48:15 pm »
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:37:51 pm by Rob Andrews »


  • way2
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 08:18:16 pm »
I didn't see anyone else ask this, so I apologize if this is redundant, but what about doing a fork and running with the current system and POG?