Bible Pay

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  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2018, 10:40:06 am »
My concern about gaming is two fold.  One, I'm pretty that a tactical player could constantly jump around the T15 value and skew the mid range values to their benefit (running multiple wallets).  But for now, I'll leave that alone and concentrate on the bigger issue I see.  There is a psychological puzzle called, "The Dollar Game".  It revolves around the "sunk cost" fallacy.  In essence, logic will dictate that many Tranches (I'll call them "T's") will end up unprofitable.  And then most users will end up just giving the minimum to have a chance to mine in T0.  And then the other T's will fill up to get a positive gain.

I also don't see where we can get 2000 new users from.  Or put another way, how do we get these new users and why cannot we get them now?  The issue is on the short term the monthly addition of nearly 40M coins (your estimate which I think is fair and reasonable), plus the normal Orphan funding would equal our average monthly volume (in raw coins).  So unless we got these new users quickly, the system would crash as supply would far outstrip historical demand.  And normal PoG users will be self funding and not require an infusion of new coins.  So yes, if we could have a 10 fold increase in users (we have roughly 200 PoDC users now) that should have a positive impact on price.

Don't get me wrong, it's a near genius system from a computer science standpoint!  But I don't see a clear positive impact from it in terms of users (it's still pretty complex for a beginner) nor price (it doesn't really add a use case).


  • sunk818
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2018, 12:24:42 pm »
So the tranche (can we call this bracket or bucket?)  you belong to is the min & max of the last 205 blocks portioned in 1/16 increments? So, the tranche you belong to is a moving target?  If the recurring contribution to the orphan foundation address is automated and predictable, I could see donations made at specific block heights to place yourself in a solo tranche.


  • inblue
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 02:28:33 am »
Don't get me wrong, it's a near genius system from a computer science standpoint!  But I don't see a clear positive impact from it in terms of users (it's still pretty complex for a beginner) nor price (it doesn't really add a use case).

But exactly that is what will increase the value of BiblePay in the long term! I also think it's a genius system, not just the giving part or the unique feature of an integrated pool, but the astounding decrease of power consumption by 94%. Imagine if Bitcoin needed 94% less power to be mined... I think it's revolutionary, almost on par with Satoshi's ideas, especially now that Bitcoin uses as much power as a small country. But of course, all of this stands only if the algo is exploit-free. Sunk's post above is a potential exploit, but if the algo is made to be "perfect", then I don't see why to not implement it, even if it doesn't increase users in the short term.

So the tranche (can we call this bracket or bucket?)  you belong to is the min & max of the last 205 blocks portioned in 1/16 increments? So, the tranche you belong to is a moving target?  If the recurring contribution to the orphan foundation address is automated and predictable, I could see donations made at specific block heights to place yourself in a solo tranche.

Hmm, also, what if you tithe to more than one tranche/bracket, to increase your mining potential and to not waste your server's resources? And then the power reduction would also not be 94% if someone mines in 5 tranches.


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2018, 08:43:29 am »
My primary concerns are:

A shift from PoDC and staking could potentially flood the market with roughly 200M BBP.  Our monthly average volume in coins over the last month was 44M BBP.  Our one year average monthly volume is 65M.  If too much of this went to market it would crash the price and I fear we would not recover.  If most of it went into Sanctuaries that would dramatically decrease our ROI.

It's logical to think that in the moderate term, PoG could account for 40M BBP a month (iRob's estimate of monthly tithes which I see as reasonable).  This is funding that most likely will hit the markets more or less immediately.  Again, even looking long term, this would account for a majority of the traditional average monthly volume.  A near doubling of coins heading to market would likely crash the market and again, I fear if we drop to 1 sat we won't recover.

Finally, I'll revisit my technical concerns. 

I feel the system cannot be made to resist gaming under the current parameters.  Having one daily assignment of brackets (Tranches) would mitigate some of this, as a player could not continue to shift the brackets through the day.  However, this would introduce a new gaming strategy in which a well heeled player could run multiple accounts, make a massive bid on one of them (to ensure T15 status), quite possibly at a loss, then run four to ten other accounts to get solo positioning on the lower T's for a net gain.

I feel the system would to be hard for new users.  Right now, I can say with reasonable accuracy, if you PoDC, stake 100% (which would cost "x" BBP), you'll get about "y" reward a day.  Since the team RAC doesn't typically jump around by 20% or more a day, that becomes one less major variable for a new user.  However with this proposed system, one day a tithe of 400 BBP will earn you 700 BBP, and the next day it might earn you only 250 BBP (a loss).   That's going to be difficult to calculate a return on over time and would likely discourage a new user from beginning.

In conclusion, despite my feeling we gave up on PoDC when we eliminated the Team requirement and competitors blacklist, I still think it's the best system we've got given where we are at. If we were starting a new coin, I'd be more interested to see what PoG could accomplish (which is similar to one of my favorite systems to research, Proof of Burn even though the two are different animals).  But for our current position, a dramatic change of this nature could very well kill the markets and I'm not seeing a clear path to a horde of new users (and if that path exists, I don't see PoG making it more or less possible than PoDC).


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2018, 09:42:24 am »
I saw the recommendations of Tranche/Tithe on the other forum; I don't mind calling the Tranches "tiers" in the end for better PR.  The Tithe however - I agree with TheSnat, the 10% was more or less a guideline for the Jews in how much crop they gave back, but in general Tithe is giving out of ones personal holdings, and in that we are a religious base, I don't want to change from Tithe to donation so easily. 

EDIT:
For payment efficiency, we can break the payments up into tiers using :  (this interval is based on the last_block_tithed modulus % 16 of each giver) - put in simple terms, at block 80000, we pay pool tier 0, at 80015 we pay pool tier 15.  In this system, the highest givers are not paid on tier 15 - each tier is really a cross section of 1/16th of the pools owed recipients. 


As far as Suns concerns of 5year old, I think that this could be summarized in a very simple way - especially if you consider most miners do not need to know about the actual mechanics of bits/blockhash uints etc.  A lot of this is for this technical discussion only.  Using this in prod is as simple as watching a one page report and deciding to tithe or not, etc. 


EDIT 2: We still need tiers to prevent someone from massively tithing (and hogging) the entire global kitty in the morning.
So let us assume we have 'tithing tiers' and 'payment tiers'.  The tithing tiers exist to prevent one from hogging too much of the pool weight in one given gift tier.  It has the downside that it re-generates the tier breaks multiple times per day, but it has the upside that if a person or group attempts to hog a tier, a tier only can become unprofitable leaving the rest of the tiers open for the rest of us.  (In contrast to a global kitty, that could be ruined by one large giver at 9 AM).



« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 09:57:27 am by Rob Andrews »


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2018, 11:01:01 am »
Not sure what you mean about Sun's concerns of 5 years ago,   But a big concern would be the mechanism can be simply stated as "you donate and are rewarded", but the ROI would be wildly variable and we've seen how reasonably savvy users have had trouble understanding the PoDC staking tiers, this seems more complex than that.

This system while technically elegant, would require a myriad of safeguards to prevent gaming in practice, and that would add more complexity.

I think we're far better off improving the PoDC documentation, considering a team membership bonus and trying to improve that then spending time, energy and resources trying to develop something new.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2018, 02:54:10 pm »
I've been doing some thinking today - about enhancing POG with a rule that would keep it fair for everyone (IE make it unexploitable by strategic givers).

I believe we need to add an element of uncertainty to the pool - to make the act of giving and being rewarded uncertain.  What this does is forces the giver to give based on expecting nothing in return, but having the ability to be in the pool and mine.

Basically what we would do is make each tiers payments have an unpredictable recipient list - where each recipient included in the share weight has approximately 1/410'th chance of being in the payment structure.  (Although it sounds random, we would have a deterministic algorithm based on the best blockhash of the payment that determines if a recipient is included in the output).  So what this means is based on 205 blocks per day, a tither has only a 1 in 410 chance of actually being paid that day (per block), meaning that although one is in the pool, and one has tithe_weight, one is not necessarily going to get paid - except when they get lucky.  However, the pool weight would be adjusted to those chosen few in that round (another words, we still honor the tithe_weight, but those in the payment split the 80% fully) and those not in the payment lose out on that block.

This makes it a different animal in deciding when you go to tithe, you don't necessarily get a reward.  Unless you persistently tithe for a few days straight.  Then you are more likely to get a reward at least once.  Also note however when a person does get paid, the payment will be that much higher - so people aren't really losing money here- they just have no certainty to receive anything back when chosen.  (This system does not reward more frequently if one tries to hack it and send in multiple gifts, as some would be lost others would be not lost - so I believe from the standpoint of 10 tithes of low amounts from 10 hacked wallets OR 10 tithes of high amounts from hacked wallets, it would not matter, as there is always a new 1/410th event per block payout deciding whether the individual tithe counts or not- so in that sense it is not exploitable either).

This should fully remove any chance of gaming the system as it is a complete unknown if the pool will pay you back on a given day.



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2018, 04:37:18 pm »
So now the pros of POG:

* Any single pc or unbanked phone (pending MIP to add a tithe button to mobile wallet) could receive pool rewards
* Approx a 90% electricity reduction diverted to the orphan foundation (since PODC would be diverted to pool payments)
* A 100-700% increase in orphan sponsorships (potentially) as compared to PODC
* Mass adoption is possible, due to one-click setup
* Equivalent security (since the heat miners still exist, and potentially increase)
* Internal Pool
* Simple to support and use and explain

Cons:

* A more basic algorithm, we lose the "cancer mining" mantra


So we really have to consider the facets.  I know people have a "stake" in PODC, and they are rightfully going to be resistant to change.  I'm even highly supportive of the PODC infrastructure.  For me it boils down to the tradeoff of more potential orphans (that electric is not being Wasted per se, but this is the first time I considered trading it off for orphan sponsorpships in a new way).  That influenced me.  The mass adoption potential influenced me also.  And lastly I always have the 'third party' issue hanging over us, where we have to fight to prove these RAC credits have always been accurate by the project admins.


(Possible side terms:  tithers = sowers, miners = reapers)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 09:56:43 am by Rob Andrews »


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2018, 09:16:51 pm »
Again, its a technically beautiful system.

Where is this sudden influx of users?  How are we to get them and why can we not get then now?

So far, the system has been hard to explain to us dedicated users.  I haven't seen a clear cut simple explanation nor summary of how this would work.

Finally, don't think I'm stuck on PoDC because I'm in it, it would be great to have a system that cost less to operate because the big operators could stand to save a bunch on electricity.  I think it's a great marketing tool (cancer research), great for humanity, but the biggest thing I see is the release of stake which I think would crush the markets.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2018, 10:13:35 am »
Again, its a technically beautiful system.

Where is this sudden influx of users?  How are we to get them and why can we not get then now?

So far, the system has been hard to explain to us dedicated users.  I haven't seen a clear cut simple explanation nor summary of how this would work.

Finally, don't think I'm stuck on PoDC because I'm in it, it would be great to have a system that cost less to operate because the big operators could stand to save a bunch on electricity.  I think it's a great marketing tool (cancer research), great for humanity, but the biggest thing I see is the release of stake which I think would crush the markets.

I agree, removing the PODC stake might crush the market for a short period (depends on how many whales buy up 5 satoshi coins and how quickly).  Its uncertain how much of that would be converted to sancs however (probably 75% of those coins wouldnt enter the market because the user would rather create a sanc and wait - than "give" them away cheap).

I think the difference between PODC and POG - as far as the influx of users is something like this:  In PODC, Mary & Joe take a look at cancer mining, and maybe one of the two figures it out and sticks with it, and has trouble explaining it to 5 friends - one of whom is really a technical geek and gives it a try- this leads to a dead end relatively quickly (unless, our price starts to rise - then people are convinced of biblepay for the profit reason).  I think this is where we are now.  This is all speculative on POG, but I believe the difference is this:  Mary and Joe install BiblePay at home, on each pc, they both understand it, and both of Mary & Joe's external network hears about BiblePay at lunch, and if we have a success rate of more than even 20%, via simple word of mouth - then we end up with grass-roots growth, basically looking at more than 3 users per day entering our ecosystem and staying would explain a possible source of the 2000.  I suppose to even say more succintly, what ecosystem can be engineered that causes positive sustainable growth with a quantifiable measure of new users.  You might this is all speculative, but if I show a new user a good reason And its easy, this picture might change.  The picture of PODC is :  Im doing something good for the world, Im spending electricity, Im maintaining a highly technical environment.  The picture of POG is :  Im mining BiblePay with very little electricity in the background, Im giving to the orphan foundation, and Im getting back biblepay rewards, and its easy, why dont you run it in the background also?  (There is a difference in hobbyists who spend a lot on server expenses - and have a lot of servers, as compared to a lot of users who each spend very little on the server and electricity) - but the question is will we reap long term investors from both or from the latter?

Anyway, let me work on simplifying POG down to a new explanation, knowing what we know now, as I added the uncertainty principle to it yesterday.



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2018, 12:26:52 pm »
I edited this one to make it technically correct:
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving

I added this simplified version for a new user to grasp:
https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-for-Beginners

In summary, we no longer have tiers for giving or payments (but the pool does emit a giving report by tier for informational purposes only), instead we have a global kitty now with tithe_weight by user.  But we also now only pay pool recipients whose tithe is chosen (with a 1/410 chance of each tithe being weighted and therefore rewarded per block). 


  • thesnat21
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2018, 06:18:49 pm »
Couple of questions:
How would this handle multiple-client/machine miners (one large wallet, but copied to multiple machines for mining purposes)? 

What happens if we get over 1k miners,  the reward and/or chance would drop drastically, 

Would there be logic to prevent someone from missing too many payments (or getting paid too many times, while others "Starve")

It's an ambitious proposal.. .



  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2018, 07:50:30 pm »
This is given as fuel to improve.  Not criticism.

Is the 1/410 random or deterministic? 

If it's deterministic, then it is far easier to game and I would say it should not be done.

If it's random, then if each block there is a 1/410 chance I will be selected (as a tither) then there is a 2.87% chance a tither could go a week without a reward.  That is going to put people off (meanwhile the same 2.87% chance a person will receive a reward seven day straight days).

Are only tithers going to be given the exclusive 15 minute mining window?  If not, then 20% of our coins could be again swamped by botnets.  I would think some exclusive period would be granted based on the tithe_weight.  That is, in your simplified example, Miners 401-500 would get the first 60 seconds exclusive, then 301-500 would get the next 60 seconds, until finally, 1-501 would all have exclusive rights in the fifth minute before opening it up to the non-tither's on minute six?  Those numbers could be modified but without an exclusive period (or if all miners get the same window regardless of tithe), then I see the botnet head rearing up again if the price improves.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2018, 09:34:40 pm »
This is given as fuel to improve.  Not criticism.

Is the 1/410 random or deterministic? 

If it's deterministic, then it is far easier to game and I would say it should not be done.

If it's random, then if each block there is a 1/410 chance I will be selected (as a tither) then there is a 2.87% chance a tither could go a week without a reward.  That is going to put people off (meanwhile the same 2.87% chance a person will receive a reward seven day straight days).

Are only tithers going to be given the exclusive 15 minute mining window?  If not, then 20% of our coins could be again swamped by botnets.  I would think some exclusive period would be granted based on the tithe_weight.  That is, in your simplified example, Miners 401-500 would get the first 60 seconds exclusive, then 301-500 would get the next 60 seconds, until finally, 1-501 would all have exclusive rights in the fifth minute before opening it up to the non-tither's on minute six?  Those numbers could be modified but without an exclusive period (or if all miners get the same window regardless of tithe), then I see the botnet head rearing up again if the price improves.

The 1/410th formula is in the wiki, and I just want to point out - deterministic in crypto does not mean it is determinable by humans *beforehand*.  You can't have random in crypto (or the chain would fork).  The element of randomness when solving a block is that a deterministic blockhash is less than the deterministic hash target (note that both were deterministic) but solving the block is still essentially random.  Anyway this particular choosing method is also deterministic (in the sense that we wont fork by using it) but you cannot determine if a winner won until the payout event - so that it cant be gamed.  Yes, correct, I would never have suggested a "win/loss" event algorithm that could be gamed, otherwise it would be useless the first week in prod.  Just check out the algo in the wiki at the end of the doc.

I realize the outlier would mean some couldnt solve a block for 7 days straight, that is a given.  Its better than solo mining.  All one has to do is continue to tithe daily as long as the pool report shows "profitable" to do so.  Eventually they get paid.  Thats a beauty, I think, compared to jumping on bitcoin and never being paid in 100 years, and not needing a pool.  Note that this system scales as well, we could handle 1 million miners with this system (although I admit, they wouldnt all tithe because once the kitty is exceeded people will scale back tithes.  But price improvements would change that).  Impo, I would just tithe in the morning and at night until a payment comes through (as long as our pool is profitable) - the tithes would be cumulative, so each new tithe would increase the total in the pool for the single unpaid miner.

Could you please explain the 15 minute mining window question in more detail?  All entry tithes mature in the pool in just 6 blocks.  Everyones tithe is equal (as far as chance of being entered, timewise).  The payout event happens at the instant a new block is mined.



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Add Proof-of-Giving
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2018, 09:53:11 pm »
Couple of questions:
How would this handle multiple-client/machine miners (one large wallet, but copied to multiple machines for mining purposes)? 

What happens if we get over 1k miners,  the reward and/or chance would drop drastically, 

Would there be logic to prevent someone from missing too many payments (or getting paid too many times, while others "Starve")

It's an ambitious proposal.. .

So on the multiple machine question - lets first take copying the wallet to 10 machines:
If you have one wallet copied into 10 machines, each tithing 100 bbp, each tithing event would be cumulative (meaning the pool would regard it as ONE tithe - the latest blocks - but with the SUM of the tithes over 24 hour period).  If you have 10 machines with different wallets, these would be Separate tithe events and pool entries.  However I want to make one big declaration - the pool adds an exponential tithe_weight on of ^1.25 so that bigger givers get up to 5% more weight - this promotes consolidated wallets.  So a miner would be reluctant to split up to 10 wallets (as they lose tithe_weight).  So I cant think of any advantage of doing that splitting up in this type of pool.  Since every tithe is a new event, every single tithe has a brand new 1/410 chance of being counted - so that is strong enough for us to keep someone from executing some type of horizontal attack on the pool (as  that would possibly result in a net loss for them- if one tries to hog the pool horizontally, they have individual delayed chances of winning or losing, and they would fill the pool up with tithes - which helps the foundation, so yes people might play games but in the long run the house always wins, so I think it would settle down to be a binary decision - has biblepay collected more than the critical threshhold or not for the day - we of course would have a nice rpc report for that right off the bat).

We could handle 1 million miners in this system.  Since we only pay out 1/410th of the recipients per block, scaling is not an issue.  But the real question is technically : what happens after the pool receives > 2,000,000 in tithes in a 24 hour period (regardless of quantity of tithes, but regarding the sum).  The expected payout per day is 2,050,000 roughly (based on a 10K block after the sanc is paid).  If a miner chooses to tithe 100,000 bbp and so on after the pool already collected 2 MIL, what they are doing is either hoping to get lucky (by establishing some share weight) or not caring if they break even or lose a little.  It gets relatively redicules if we collect 4MIL on a day and the pool is only paying out 2 MIL.  The answer is the RPC report showing the total tithes (in the last 205 blocks) will empower the decision.

There would be no logic to take care of starvers or excessive receivers, but technically, this system would pay so frequently with 205 blocks per day that in a given 2 week period for most intents and purposes, the effect would be very reliable.  The ebbs and flows would work themselves out.  Consider a situation where you can solo mine one block every 3 days (roughly) and this is exactly what we are looking at.  The reason we should lean toward this uncertainty principle is when someone tries to game it, the fate of that person is the same as people who try to game a casino - they end up giving the orphan foundation the excess and that is good for the orphans.