Bible Pay

Poll

What basis should we stake Biblepay?

Staking based on Magnitude (MAG)
5 (31.3%)
Staking based on Recent Average Credit (RAC)
11 (68.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: March 18, 2018, 09:22:35 pm

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  • aikida3k
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Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« on: March 11, 2018, 09:22:35 pm »
This is in regards to the recent discussion on the Biblepay ANN thread.


Let's look at this a different way.  Let's say I go to Prestonwood Baptist church, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  They might ask,"Are you buying it?" I'd have to say, "No, I'm just mining the pea-wodding out of it.  It has a limited supply, but so do the other 1550 and increasing other coins available."  They would feel like suckers being taken advantage of.

But! If we have stake based on RAC, and I say to people, "Hey why don't ya'll buy some biblepay that I'm mining.  It will help support orphans."  And they ask,"Are you buying it?"  I have to say, "Yes! For every computer I add that does crunching, I have to either hold or buy biblepay."  (With magnitude based staking, the amount I have to stake should decrease as the network grows: MAGSHARE=MAG/USERBASE as user base expands, my share of the MAG becomes smaller.)  Then they might say, "Oh, it sounds like a good idea if you are buying and holding right alongside me, even though I'm not that interested in crunching."  And I could say, "Yep, go for it!"

Honestly I think either will work, RAC or magnitude. I just like magnitude because it scales with the network size. But either or will do for me.

The simplest way I look at is, Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million.  Always, even when supply is 3 Billion.  For RAC our current RAC is 1.3M So if we do 20 BBP per RAC that is 26 million lockup.  If we have a 10 million RAC with x larger supply that is a 200 million lockup.  Woo-hoo! We just engineered ourselves higher prices at a fraction of the cost of a masternode, important especially when masternodes become unaffordable.  It is important to consistently seek some way to keep mopping up supply.  This coin has a lot of supply on the front end.  It will take time for the supply to consolidate.  If bitcoin goes way up, we will still have a high effusion rate, people won't be able to afford to buy as much biblepay.  If we keep growing the stake amount with the RAC of the network, we do something to give buyers confidence that the coin won't collapse.  Buyers are the ones who truly support the orphans, not miners and crunchers.

Even when the exchanges are out of maintenance, take some time to read the tape when the prices suddenly go up.  Prices go up by surprise because liquidity dried up and people are willing to pay higher and higher prices.  They take out those standing limit offers.  Then the miners start to come in when they realize prices just got higher.  At first, they put out limits on the offer.  When those stop getting hit, they start to get desperate and start hitting the bid, soaking up liquidity the other way.  Then prices come back down.  It would help to have a consistent way to soak up supply and we would engineer higher prices much in the way companies buy back their own stock.  Miners are part of the company.  Miners accumulating bbp as the network grows helps prices to appreciate.

For reference the current masternode lockup has 262 million bpp.  And since the start of masternodes we are consistently 20 or more satoshi higher.  So more lockup should mean higher prices, and more orphans supported.  A win for everybody.


  • znffal
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 09:25:57 pm »
One thing to remember, whichever one we do, we can always change it later. Although it is preferable to get it right first time.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2018, 09:38:01 pm »
I'm thinking if the RAC is below 1000 you don't need to stake and limit it to Windows and Android machines and no Xeon processors.


  • aikida3k
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 09:51:13 pm »
I'm thinking if the RAC is below 1000 you don't need to stake and limit it to Windows and Android machines and no Xeon processors.

I would agree with no need to stake below 1000 RAC.  Limiting OS and processors would require a lot of code and time I would think.


  • znffal
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 10:01:53 pm »
I'm thinking if the RAC is below 1000 you don't need to stake and limit it to Windows and Android machines and no Xeon processors.

I don't think this is a good idea. If someone has an RAC of 10,000 they can circumvent stake by setting up 11 accounts.
Also, if I understand correctly, the unbanked on cell phones will need no stake.

Re this one "Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million"
As I noted on the forum, this is not true, since even someone with magnitude of 0.1 will have to reach a minimum stake. It is likely that many/most of our users will be in this situation, hence the value would be more than 50 million.

I'd also like to note that this is currently the status quo; someone with RAC=10 needs to stake 50,001 to take fulla dvantage of their RAC. This is the same stake as someone who has RAC of 100,000. So there is actually no change for the small user, but a large change for the large user.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 10:03:36 pm by znffal »


  • T-Mike
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2018, 09:04:45 am »
I would agree with no need to stake below 1000 RAC.  Limiting OS and processors would require a lot of code and time I would think.

It is already partially being done for the unbanked CPIDs so I don't think it will be an issue. It will take some time, but I don't think a lot, I could probably do the filtering part.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 09:08:33 am »
I don't think this is a good idea. If someone has an RAC of 10,000 they can circumvent stake by setting up 11 accounts.
Also, if I understand correctly, the unbanked on cell phones will need no stake.

Re this one "Do you want a static aggregate stake amount or a growing stake amount?  Unless I missed something Total MAG always is 1000.  So 1000*50000=50 million"
As I noted on the forum, this is not true, since even someone with magnitude of 0.1 will have to reach a minimum stake. It is likely that many/most of our users will be in this situation, hence the value would be more than 50 million.

I'd also like to note that this is currently the status quo; someone with RAC=10 needs to stake 50,001 to take fulla dvantage of their RAC. This is the same stake as someone who has RAC of 100,000. So there is actually no change for the small user, but a large change for the large user.

That is why I said to restrict the cpu type and os type. The filters I mentioned will drastically cut down on the number of people trying to do that. Realistically, its will probably be years before more then a couple people that are actually unbanked start computing.  There is hardly and cell reception in places like that most likely. We need to make it easier for normal computer users now in this time and place.


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2018, 12:45:30 pm »
I voted RAC but meant to vote MAG.

Here is why I think MAG is better.  Over time the RAC is going to be very high (my prediction is 20M RAC by the end of the year, if not sooner).  So if the decision is made to go on RAC it brings up the following conundrum.  Right now at 1.5M RAC, lets say we choose 10BBP/RAC.  While at 1.5M RAC, 10K RAC makes roughly 10K BBP/day.  So right now you'd need to stake (at 10/RAC) 100K BBP to make 10K per day.  The same machine at years end and 20M RAC would only make about 600BBP/day but still need a 100K stake.  So either the BBP/RAC is so low that people running thousands of dollars worth of VPS per month that there is no sacrifice needed to mine the coin, or it is at a reasonable number now but at years end will be entirely predatory to new users who have no real chance of making anywhere close to their stake in a year, let alone weeks.

Whearas going off MAG will be reasonably equitable.  The reward decreases over time (about 18%/year) and the RAC will likely be more evenly distributed (no one will likely have 10% by the end of the year). 

As far as the sub 1000 RAC, I think just saying an account with one ARM based is exempt is enough, otherwise people will divide their accounts and cheat the system.

The only other system I see is far more complex and would likely confuse users.  But the most fair system should be something like, you need 100x the BBP of your daily reward staked.  That sort of system scales well and is equitable.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2018, 02:59:54 pm »
I voted RAC but meant to vote MAG.

Here is why I think MAG is better.  Over time the RAC is going to be very high (my prediction is 20M RAC by the end of the year, if not sooner).  So if the decision is made to go on RAC it brings up the following conundrum.  Right now at 1.5M RAC, lets say we choose 10BBP/RAC.  While at 1.5M RAC, 10K RAC makes roughly 10K BBP/day.  So right now you'd need to stake (at 10/RAC) 100K BBP to make 10K per day.  The same machine at years end and 20M RAC would only make about 600BBP/day but still need a 100K stake.  So either the BBP/RAC is so low that people running thousands of dollars worth of VPS per month that there is no sacrifice needed to mine the coin, or it is at a reasonable number now but at years end will be entirely predatory to new users who have no real chance of making anywhere close to their stake in a year, let alone weeks.

Whearas going off MAG will be reasonably equitable.  The reward decreases over time (about 18%/year) and the RAC will likely be more evenly distributed (no one will likely have 10% by the end of the year). 

As far as the sub 1000 RAC, I think just saying an account with one ARM based is exempt is enough, otherwise people will divide their accounts and cheat the system.

The only other system I see is far more complex and would likely confuse users.  But the most fair system should be something like, you need 100x the BBP of your daily reward staked.  That sort of system scales well and is equitable.

I don't think ARM is enough,  not many people will want to use their phones to compute. Plus there is a huge iOS market that cannot run BOINC and the majority Windows novice computer users. In a couple of weeks or months 100,000 RAC might not give you that much reward. I'm not sure someone will want to create 100 VMs just to take advantage of the system. We can however change to perhaps 500 RAC, my Atom processor get 1000 RAC but that's running 24/7.


  • aikida3k
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Re: Poll for Type of Staking: MAG or RAC
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 04:22:21 pm »
I voted RAC but meant to vote MAG.

Here is why I think MAG is better.  Over time the RAC is going to be very high (my prediction is 20M RAC by the end of the year, if not sooner).  So if the decision is made to go on RAC it brings up the following conundrum.  Right now at 1.5M RAC, lets say we choose 10BBP/RAC.  While at 1.5M RAC, 10K RAC makes roughly 10K BBP/day.  So right now you'd need to stake (at 10/RAC) 100K BBP to make 10K per day.  The same machine at years end and 20M RAC would only make about 600BBP/day but still need a 100K stake.  So either the BBP/RAC is so low that people running thousands of dollars worth of VPS per month that there is no sacrifice needed to mine the coin, or it is at a reasonable number now but at years end will be entirely predatory to new users who have no real chance of making anywhere close to their stake in a year, let alone weeks.

Whearas going off MAG will be reasonably equitable.  The reward decreases over time (about 18%/year) and the RAC will likely be more evenly distributed (no one will likely have 10% by the end of the year). 

As far as the sub 1000 RAC, I think just saying an account with one ARM based is exempt is enough, otherwise people will divide their accounts and cheat the system.

The only other system I see is far more complex and would likely confuse users.  But the most fair system should be something like, you need 100x the BBP of your daily reward staked.  That sort of system scales well and is equitable.

I meant to select the option to allow you to change your vote.  It doesn't look like I can edit that now. We'll keep your intended vote for MAG in mind.

I am fine with a system that would allow for decreasing the stake required per RAC as the network grows.  The ultimate goals I have in mind are growing the aggregate amount staked with the growth of the network and thereby drawing in traders and investors- drawing in people who aren't as interested in crunching.  I think that is a much larger population that will get us price appreciation, and it is something we can do now instead of hoping and waiting we get on bigger exchanges.