Bible Pay

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  • Rob A.
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2018, 06:16:52 am »
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.



  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2018, 07:05:48 am »
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.

The plan is to have 100% of the rewards from the sanctuary be a backup to the main 10% or go to another charity. In other words, once this fund is established, we should not have to surpass the 10% like we do now. Due diligence is done beforehand so the funds will go to whichever charity we choose. The commission will certainly help to perform the due diligence when deciding on a new charity.

I understand the centralization aspect, for the fund, we can break it up once it reaches a certain value to another person. As for the sanctuaries, we can also have different people be the sanctuary admin and forward the funds when received. That way if someone's wallet is stolen, it will only be a partial loss and minimizes the centralization.

At this point, it appears the fund won't be receiving anything this month, if we add a charity every month we might not be able to have a sanctuary at all for a while. That is why I proposed to modify the governance system in the general discussion area so that even if the funds do not receive the full amount we might have a chance to receive part of it. I also need to make a proposal every month for the 500K BBP correct?

I also added a proposal to donated the left over rewards from the superblock to the charity fund so none of it is wasted.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 07:20:07 am by T-Mike »


  • inblue
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2018, 07:37:09 am »
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.

I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.


  • Rob A.
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 08:19:54 am »
I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.
I dont think there is a possibility of changing the current maximum budget cap (of 20% : 10% to Charity, 5% to IT, 2.5% to P2P and 2.5% to PR) - as that is what we promised to the investors.  I know I railed for 5% for IT during inception when I discovered the dire necessity (the decision was based on the greater good, coming down to survival) but I am also a staunch advocate of sticking with what we have forever.  Our emissions rate, our deflation rate and our block cap and our budget cap per block - forever now, I beleive its set in stone now.  (On a side note you will see the next total monthly budget increased due to technical reasons - we based the old 5.7MM budget on the Maximum difficulty possible, starting in the PODC world, we will be basing the budget on PODC diff which is much lower so we will have more breathing room in 40 days, and also, our 7 min block targets will kick in, giving us more breathing room).

Mike, Im not sure I understand, you said in the general section you would want us to change the governance system? LOL.  And I still didnt receive a clear answer:  Do you intend to raise 3 payments of 500K each, for a total of 1.55 M to start One sanctuary, or do you intend to ask for payment # 5, 6, 7 to start More than one sanctuary?    And finally, I dont understand how other biblepay community members can have a say in future charity expenditures by Sanctuary #1 if they cant vote on a proposal to spend it in the governance system.  Would this be done manually, by You, in the forum, basically where User 10, 11 and 12 submits some type of Forum Post to spend the sanctuary money and You manually approve these expenditures (based on said forum posts)  without any voting system (such as in client voting for current budget proposals)?

« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 08:22:01 am by Rob A. »


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2018, 08:29:17 am »
I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.

I thought about that also but the problem is that we will probably always be in the negative in the sense that even if did 100% was going to charities there will still be people in need. So the whole point of creating sanctuaries was so that we can also use a share of the 40% going to sanctuaries for charities and that we can slowly increase that over time.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2018, 08:56:20 am »
I dont think there is a possibility of changing the current maximum budget cap (of 20% : 10% to Charity, 5% to IT, 2.5% to P2P and 2.5% to PR) - as that is what we promised to the investors.  I know I railed for 5% for IT during inception when I discovered the dire necessity (the decision was based on the greater good, coming down to survival) but I am also a staunch advocate of sticking with what we have forever.  Our emissions rate, our deflation rate and our block cap and our budget cap per block - forever now, I beleive its set in stone now.  (On a side note you will see the next total monthly budget increased due to technical reasons - we based the old 5.7MM budget on the Maximum difficulty possible, starting in the PODC world, we will be basing the budget on PODC diff which is much lower so we will have more breathing room in 40 days, and also, our 7 min block targets will kick in, giving us more breathing room).

Mike, Im not sure I understand, you said in the general section you would want us to change the governance system? LOL.  And I still didnt receive a clear answer:  Do you intend to raise 3 payments of 500K each, for a total of 1.55 M to start One sanctuary, or do you intend to ask for payment # 5, 6, 7 to start More than one sanctuary?    And finally, I dont understand how other biblepay community members can have a say in future charity expenditures by Sanctuary #1 if they cant vote on a proposal to spend it in the governance system.  Would this be done manually, by You, in the forum, basically where User 10, 11 and 12 submits some type of Forum Post to spend the sanctuary money and You manually approve these expenditures (based on said forum posts)  without any voting system (such as in client voting for current budget proposals)?

Rob, I will post a reply in the generals section regarding your question on governance.

Yes, I realized I didn't answer your question afterwards but it was for perpetual. We can just do one but it would not be very effective. I would have to put in a proposal every month anyways so it could stop at any moment. It seems most people are just concerned with the sanctuaries aspect of this proposal and we can just remove it. The other goal was to have a small group of people to organize the charity aspect of the project and to create a charity fund which we do not have right now. And if people think having a charity fund is too centralized then well we can not have that also.

Regarding how the funds will be spent, I think we can vote on expenses that need to be voted on and one's that don't. Like when we need more than 10% for charities, we can take that from the charity fund and it won't need to be voted on. We can continue to use the governance system for how funds will be used, you would just have to input 0 as the payment and someone will have to process it manually. If you think that is too centralized then will need to find some way to do it with code.

I also updated the post to limit my personal donation to 3 months.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 09:12:14 am by T-Mike »


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2018, 09:12:24 pm »
Could the people who voted no please comment as to why you don't like this proposal?


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2018, 05:58:47 am »
Could the people who voted no please comment as to why you don't like this proposal?

I haven't voted yet because I think we should talk more about the details before I can say 'yes' or 'no'.

But I like your last post. I'd really like to have a group that audits new charities and shares their results with the community. And I also like the idea to have some reserves to survive the meager months. Obviously, the reserves have to be handled by someone (or a group), but any proposal eventually comes down on trusting the person that proposed it. So, as long as the fund is not mega-large (say, the size of one monthly charity budget), I wouldn't have much problems with it.

But I don't know what to think about the masternode-idea at this point of time, especially when there will be multitude of them. Power corrupts, and that's why I like the idea of as much decentralization as possible in the first place, so there is no room for temptation.

Or course, it all comes down to economics in the end: would you invest in a coin which continually dumps half its generated coins on the open market? Maybe we can generate more money in the long run if we keep the charity budget at 10%. Of course, the charity budget is fixed, but I mean that in the scenario where half the masternodes are owned by a group that sells almost everything they generate, this will lessen the coins value (I think).



  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2018, 07:09:29 am »
I haven't voted yet because I think we should talk more about the details before I can say 'yes' or 'no'.

But I like your last post. I'd really like to have a group that audits new charities and shares their results with the community. And I also like the idea to have some reserves to survive the meager months. Obviously, the reserves have to be handled by someone (or a group), but any proposal eventually comes down on trusting the person that proposed it. So, as long as the fund is not mega-large (say, the size of one monthly charity budget), I wouldn't have much problems with it.

But I don't know what to think about the masternode-idea at this point of time, especially when there will be multitude of them. Power corrupts, and that's why I like the idea of as much decentralization as possible in the first place, so there is no room for temptation.

Or course, it all comes down to economics in the end: would you invest in a coin which continually dumps half its generated coins on the open market? Maybe we can generate more money in the long run if we keep the charity budget at 10%. Of course, the charity budget is fixed, but I mean that in the scenario where half the masternodes are owned by a group that sells almost everything they generate, this will lessen the coins value (I think).

Thanks for the feedback. As I said before, it will most likely take a long time to have that many masternodes, and even then, we can split off the masternodes to different owners.

I will change the proposal to say we will build one 1 year. Does that make you more more supportive of the idea at that frequency?


  • aikida3k
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2018, 09:41:57 pm »
You'll disincentivize owning masternodes.  If someone is getting "free" masternodes from the charity portion in order to sell all the proceeds for charity, it dilutes the current masternode owners ownership and their returns.  As masternode owners we are having to hold bbp for price risk.  If we get diluted from free masternodes we lose our incentive to hold. 

My suggestion is people take their own proceeds and give them to their own charities as they will. 

Where did the poll go?  I don't see it to vote.


  • aikida3k
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2018, 10:14:28 pm »
You'll disincentivize owning masternodes.  If someone is getting "free" masternodes from the charity portion in order to sell all the proceeds for charity, it dilutes the current masternode owners ownership and their returns.  As masternode owners we are having to hold bbp for price risk.  If we get diluted from free masternodes we lose our incentive to hold. 

My suggestion is people take their own proceeds and give them to their own charities as they will. 

Where did the poll go?  I don't see it to vote.

My greatest dream for this coin is that it actually BECOMES the charity. It doesn't just give to a charity.  It IS the charity.  It becomes an earthy extension of the GREAT I AM.  It funds itself to do work in the world.  It actually goes through and around the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, telling the story of the woman who poured her perfume over Jesus:

Matthew 26:13
Mark 14:9

          Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world,
          what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.

No one that I know of is doing this.
But you also have to realize, that if Biblepay is to BECOME the charity, it has to grow much larger in marketcap: to 100 Million or even 1 Billion or more.  In the process, if this is to happen, it will make many of you very wealthy.  But to get to that level, you have to be a good steward for the investors and take care of their funds so they are willing to keep buying and holding biblepay.

Do you have that vision?


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 02:41:52 pm »
My greatest dream for this coin is that it actually BECOMES the charity. It doesn't just give to a charity.  It IS the charity.  It becomes an earthy extension of the GREAT I AM.  It funds itself to do work in the world.  It actually goes through and around the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, telling the story of the woman who poured her perfume over Jesus:

Matthew 26:13
Mark 14:9

          Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world,
          what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.

No one that I know of is doing this.
But you also have to realize, that if Biblepay is to BECOME the charity, it has to grow much larger in marketcap: to 100 Million or even 1 Billion or more.  In the process, if this is to happen, it will make many of you very wealthy.  But to get to that level, you have to be a good steward for the investors and take care of their funds so they are willing to keep buying and holding biblepay.

Do you have that vision?


That is a good vision but I'm not sure it's BIblepay's visions as a community. When we are more organized and have an efficient decentralized governance system then we can do things like having our own charity.

I will make another proposal next round to remove the masternodes requirement and just have the charity fund as that seems to be the main problem people have with it.


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 06:56:52 am »

That is a good vision but I'm not sure it's BIblepay's visions as a community. When we are more organized and have an efficient decentralized governance system then we can do things like having our own charity.

I will make another proposal next round to remove the masternodes requirement and just have the charity fund as that seems to be the main problem people have with it.

Yeah, I think that's great! Have some back-up funds to ensure that we can always pay the bills on our current charities, and also have a group of people that have the capacity to do background-checks on potential new charities.

I must say, I still do like the idea of donating sanctuaries to charities, so they can have a steady stream of income in BBP. But I must also recognize the economics involved, because that would also mean that there will be a continuous 'dumping' on the market, and why would anyone invest in a coin that does that?

Having said that, I think that investing in Biblepay is simultaneously giving to the needy, so ROI shouldn't be the number one reason to invest in us.


  • LifeThruGrace
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 01:57:13 pm »
One of my life dreams is build a missionary trust where funds are released on a monthly or yearly basis. Whatever that value may be is irrelevant to me. Just that the trust is self-sustaining and gives (hopefully) a steady stream of funds while maintaining itself. I see Sanctuaries being able to play that role. Churches could pool to make a sanctuary and then fund the church financials or give to specific missions (charities, missionary in a specific country) to spread the great commandment in its daily form.

Mark 12 ESV 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Financials should only be a concern in that it may multiply our ability to carry out the work Jesus called us to do... not to enrich us materially. This is a harsh statement, but IMO, those that hold masternodes specifically to enrich themselves only are not aligned with the Bible.


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 12:53:24 pm »
One of my life dreams is build a missionary trust where funds are released on a monthly or yearly basis. Whatever that value may be is irrelevant to me. Just that the trust is self-sustaining and gives (hopefully) a steady stream of funds while maintaining itself. I see Sanctuaries being able to play that role. Churches could pool to make a sanctuary and then fund the church financials or give to specific missions (charities, missionary in a specific country) to spread the great commandment in its daily form.

Mark 12 ESV 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Financials should only be a concern in that it may multiply our ability to carry out the work Jesus called us to do... not to enrich us materially. This is a harsh statement, but IMO, those that hold masternodes specifically to enrich themselves only are not aligned with the Bible.

I agree with this, and it's also why I think that having charities with their own Sanctuaries is something we should applaud at BiblePay. It's a vote of confidence. I can't wait until a charity decides to submit a proposal to buy their own Sanctuary, and I hope that more will follow.

A side-note is that BiblePay probably won't be able to sustain itself when most of Sanctuary-owners are charities.

Paradoxically, the great thing about BiblePay - in my opinion - is that it's open to profiteers. What I mean by this is that an investment in BiblePay goes hand in hand with the thought about what your personal profit actually means. What does it mean for yourself to own a Sanctuary. And this question strikes an accord with myself personally, because I will fully acknowledge that I'm partly here because I see an investment in BiblePay as an investment in my own future.

So, in conclusion, I think that in order for BiblePay to survive, I think we need both investors and charities.