Bible Pay

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  • Swongel
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    • January 29, 2018, 02:03:22 pm
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FoldingCoin - HackerNews
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8962896

Gridcoin - The Bad
https://web-in-security.blogspot.ca/2017/08/gridcoin-bad.html
https://github.com/Erkan-Yilmaz/GRC/issues/34

How does GRC "securely" reward BOINC computations?
https://www.reddit.com/r/gridcoin/comments/5w4v4i/how_does_grc_securely_reward_boinc_computations/

"nevertheless destroyable by a malicious actor with reasonable funding, since it relies on a centralized service to distribute its data."
"there is some concern about Gridcoin's dependency on a second outside network (the various BOINC projects and statistics collections and so on) which could be an issue for people who believe that it negatively impacts Gridcoin's decentralization as compared to Bitcoin, which has no such external dependencies."
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/37276/why-cant-bitcoin-switch-over-to-gridcoins-proof-of-work-system

Gridcoin vs Golem
http://www.natesimpson.com/blog/archives/2017/05/21/why-gridcoin-beats-golem-hands-down/

===

I definitely see Swongels point and agree with his reasoning about decentralization,

But also going along that line of thinking, how truly decentralized is Bitcoin?
Theres a group of devs called Bitcoin Core that control commit access,
theres no inherent way to pay the Devs from Bitcoin itself and so they get funding from outside investors/donators that most likely have strings attached,
theres also the issue of mining becoming more and more centralized with ASICs with a few major players/groups controlling the majority of the network hash power,
Is Bitcoin decentralized?

How secure is the hardware that runs miners and nodes and wallets? Are there government backdoors built in?
How many people actually read the code that gets added to Bitcoin, How many have the skill to understand it?
Could someone pay off/bribe/blackmail all the Bitcoin devs?
Could someone hack 51% of Bitcoin's 11,000 full nodes?

Could a supercomputer come about that makes SHA 256 obsolete? How soon would we know about it?
What if the internet and computer use becomes extremely censored and monitored?
What happens if electricity across the world gets shut down?
What if the government prints more money and buys 51% of the currency?

How much does the average cryptocurrency investor or average person truly understand and care about 100% decentralization?
Ethereum vs Ethereum Classic, Ripple vs Stellar

Also its kind of funny, whenever there are any issues in the crypto space (coin fork/clone, trade scam, coin scam, exchange scam, etc),
theres tons of people who want the government to step in or want to add regulation

Is rewarding scientific research worth the risk of some centralization?
Is there any way to reward science research without centralization?

Im still quite new to cryptocurrency and I only know a little, just thinking out loud, I look forward to learning more!

I think the mining cycles going towards research is pretty awesome,
though I am also slightly worried about potential security concerns,
but Im down to see how it plays out.

Hi Togo,

I'll gladly answer some of your questions:

But also going along that line of thinking, how truly decentralized is Bitcoin?

"Theres a group of devs called Bitcoin Core that control commit access,
theres no inherent way to pay the Devs from Bitcoin itself and so they get funding from outside investors/donators that most likely have strings attached,
theres also the issue of mining becoming more and more centralized with ASICs with a few major players/groups controlling the majority of the network hash power,
Is Bitcoin decentralized?"

How do get open source developers paid for their work?
First of all I'll give you a link to a Wikipedia going into detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software
But personally I would use the reputation and experience from contributing to Bitcoin software in order to get jobs or provide services to companies interested in deploying Block Chain technology this can be very lucrative. (Companies such as Red Hat and Canoncical run off this business-model).

"theres also the issue of mining becoming more and more centralized with ASICs with a few major players/groups controlling the majority of the network hash power"

Yes, unfortunatly for Bitcoin ASICS make the amount of stakeholders in mining smaller than perhaps desirable, however there are still mutliple miners who all have the incentive to act in a good way there is an financial incentive for them not to join an attack (as they might lose mined bitcoins, Section 6 of the original Bitcoin white paper: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf).


"How secure is the hardware that runs miners and nodes and wallets?"

Software security is defined by against which threat-model a system is protected, all Intel processors for instance contain Intel Managment Engine allowing for anyone with the key to take over.  However Bitcoin is ported to many different hardware types, hardware wallets running open-hardware MIPS processors for instance would be incredibly hard to remotely exploit. Nevertheless security will and can never be completely guarenteed (anyone who does lies), however this doesn't mean all threats are equal.

"How many people actually read the code that gets added to Bitcoin, How many have the skill to understand it?"

Many people have read the original Bitcoin client source code and audited it, however Bitcoin is not software it's a protocol; there are multiple implementations audited made by different people. Most are open source, some are not; this however means that the source code cannot be changed by a single person a change in protocol must be implemented by all software implementations of Bitcoin.

Anyone understanding C++ can read the C++ implementation of Bitcoin, there are however implementations availible in Java and Python (read more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/213pxw/what_programming_language_is_bitcoin_written_in/)


"Could someone pay off/bribe/blackmail all the Bitcoin devs?"

Unlikely but not impossible, however if people decide that a new version of the protocol is harmful they can choose to fork (such as Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Gold) this way the coin splits in two with the community choosing which version they like best and choose to use that one.

"Could someone hack 51% of Bitcoin's 11,000 full nodes?"

Yes, one would have to hack 51% of the miners however, these miners all use different software in highly secured environments, if they were to be hacked they'd notice (by missing expected Bitcoins) and look in to the problem. One would have to do a great amount of hacking in order to get 51% of all the mining capacity hacked. (in contrast to just 1 instance when using a centralised system).


"Could a supercomputer come about that makes SHA 256 obsolete? How soon would we know about it?"

This is a really hard problem in Computer Science/Maths called P!=NP, In short all modern encryption and computer security depends on this rule being true. Breaking SHA256 (I would interpret as making it trivial to reverse the hashing operation) would have huge implications to all systems (not only crypto currency, but traditional finance, government, armed forces, etc.)


"What if the internet and computer use becomes extremely censored and monitored?"

If this happens, finance is no longer of importance, freedom of communication is a basic human right worth more than any monetary amount will ever be.


"What happens if electricity across the world gets shut down?"

Solar panels and wind mills will get more expensive, money will dissapear (I personally use very little cash these days anymore with electronic payment systems being wide spread). https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-worlds-money-is-digital


"What if the government prints more money and buys 51% of the currency?"

Crypto prices will rise during this buying, unless 51% chooses to sell their crypto for now useless and inflation torn fiat currency this cannot happen. https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/634/economics/the-problem-with-printing-money/


"How much does the average cryptocurrency investor or average person truly understand and care about 100% decentralization?
Ethereum vs Ethereum Classic, Ripple vs Stellar"

Less than they should, decentralised trustless consensus is the basis on which crypto currency is built. How many people understand encryption? Very few, many profit from it though removing encryption from online banking for example would negatively impact all users.
That's why people like me very much try to make noise when such a thing is planned.
People holding Bible Pay share my interest of keeping the coin decentralised regardless if they understand the underlying technology, if you're interested about why this is important I recommend reading the original Bitcoin white paper of watching a video going through it in layman terms. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9jOJk30eQs


"Is rewarding scientific research worth the risk of some centralization?"

No, this update might very realistically destroy the network which will have as a consequence that people will stop mining which will not only destroy the coin and take away money from orphans it will also make the added amount of compute power to research dissapear.

"Is there any way to reward science research without centralization?"

Yes, we could for example set another tithe for scientific research and donate the money to the project directly via the decentralised charity committee (master node voting). Directly rewarding researchers and allowing them to best allocate the funds to help scientific research.

I hope these answers clear up some of the questions you and others may have about this change and why there's a need to keep crypto currency decentralised.


 





  • T-Mike
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    • February 06, 2018, 06:12:58 pm
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How many tBBP should i send the the sanctuary wallet? I'm going to try doing a hot wallet sanctuary. Is the windows wallet ready yet? Thanks.


  • Rob Andrews
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    • June 05, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
    • Patmos, Island Of
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I haven't looked into how PDC is being implemented but I would agree with Swongel on the principle. It is not advisable for a decentralised trust system to be relying/trusting a single external system. Biblepay would then become quite centralised.

Its quite centralized now with a botnet, and quite decentralized with PODC mining.

Sorry to disagree, but obviously you dont understand what you are talking about.



  • Rob Andrews
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    • June 05, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
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How many tBBP should i send the the sanctuary wallet? I'm going to try doing a hot wallet sanctuary. Is the windows wallet ready yet? Thanks.
Its 500,000 in testnet.  Windows: No.



  • T-Mike
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    • February 06, 2018, 06:12:58 pm
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The DC side doesn't really affect the blockchain though. If the DC side goes down, the blockchain is still running because the POW is what keeps it going. If there are safeguards in place to insure the magnitudes are truthful I don't see a problem. Plus, perhaps the software can auto switch to 100% POW if certain criteria are met.

I'm not really an expert so please correct me if I'm wrong.


  • T-Mike
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    • February 06, 2018, 06:12:58 pm
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Its 500,000 in testnet.  Windows: No.

I recovered the 200k you sent me but I guess I will have to mine for more unless you can send me another 300k to yXbN5kN9kJiKNU5W7PGd4MFBe8rAM5baxF.

Thanks!


  • Rob Andrews
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    • June 05, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
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The DC side doesn't really affect the blockchain though. If the DC side goes down, the blockchain is still running because the POW is what keeps it going. If there are safeguards in place to insure the magnitudes are truthful I don't see a problem. Plus, perhaps the software can auto switch to 100% POW if certain criteria are met.

I'm not really an expert so please correct me if I'm wrong.


Thats exactly right.

Were going from using 12,000 computers that generate random numbers and have others check the number is actually lower than the target, to executing a cancer program, that was written by more devs than ever worked on bitcoin combined, and checking the results by a decentralized team with over 1 million host participants.  To me, that is more decentralized than our fledgling little PC base.

And yes, on the disaster recover, we fall back to pure POW if DC is down.

Like I said, we could get hacked once a month and have a higher accuracy ratio than we do with POW being distributed to 7% of our non-greed based network.

I'm going to be drawing the line with the bashing.  If you dont like the design of PODC you are going to need to find another community.

Its very obvious that Swongel is biased, as every answer to Togo was based on a one-sided view.  Christians are about compromising and giving and making it happen and working hard.  If I say that I will develop a NEW algorithm, then so be it.  If you are not with me on changing the rules and going against the grain then please, dont stick around and drag all the rest of us down. 

FIND A SOLUTION IF YOU THINK ITS TOO CENTRALIZED.  I DONT.  CANCER MINING IS A NET POSITIVE FOR BIBLEPAY.  THIS IS GOING TO SHOW WHEN WE VOTE ON IT, AND IT WILL BE A SANCTUARY VOTE.




  • znffal
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    • October 02, 2017, 04:01:47 pm
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I recovered the 200k you sent me but I guess I will have to mine for more unless you can send me another 300k to yXbN5kN9kJiKNU5W7PGd4MFBe8rAM5baxF.

Thanks!

I sent 300k


  • Rob Andrews
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    • June 05, 2017, 08:09:04 pm
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Togo: the two articles you posted with gridcoin hacks actually contain a pointer to the same hack.  That whole thing is inflated.
Its a replay attack.  All that actually was broken in gridcoin was the advertisement beacon relied on the blockhash for its nonce, and that allowed a hacker to send in a beacon as a "replay attack".  In practice, its not that easy, costs money, and is very apparent to the researcher that you stole from (as their rewards stop).  They fixed it within 1 day of lead dev being notified.

The main problem as I mentioned in the wiki that gridcoin has is their neural network has trouble emitting the daily magnitudes so I see forking and stuff, but from what I understand its pretty much under control now, but all of these issues they had are not flaws or vulnerabilities in either boinc or the boinc projects.  They are just growth pains in a very complicated crypto project, with new business logic.



  • znffal
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    • October 02, 2017, 04:01:47 pm
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Hi all,

Please let's take a breath, a step back and remember that we are all brothers and sisters who love the Lord.

I was thinking about the falling back to PoBH mining in the case of an issue with boinc and I have a (possibly naive) suggestion. What do you think of

1. Create a proposal for voting, that we appoint a moderator between BiblePay and Rosetta (likely Rob, but could be voted on to be anyone who is "qualified"). This moderator has the power to suspend boinc payments to BBP users if it seems like something nefarious is going on. In this case mining reverts to 100% PoBH.
2. If the moderator suspends boinc payments then they must provide a full report to the community. There must be a proposal added before the next superblock with a solution to the issue, or we revert back to 100% PoBH until a solution can be determined

In theory we could vote on who that moderator is so it solves/reduces one aspect of the centralisation, or there could be a team of moderators...


What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 04:30:08 pm by znffal »


I'm not sure if you saw the question related to the variance in blocks reward.

I agree that the botnet is an issue and I think you and I talked about it extensively in slack at some point.

Now i think you're the one who doesn't know what he is talking about if you think there is such a thing as a single "un-hackable" system.  Even if there was, the people controlling that system are not! The more (financial) incentives you add to corrupt said system and the more likely someone is going to find a way to corrupt that system. That's the beauty of blockchain and decentralisation; you're not relying on a single system, entity, person.

Now we can argue about the probabilities for something like that to happen (which are higher than what you think they are) but I find it highly dangerous to dismiss that risk altogether. Also, it doesn't fix the centralisation issue of a powerful botnet, it is merely shifting it to BOINC which we can argue might be a better option...but it is still centralised.

The issue is not about PoDC going down or not, but PoDC potentially being corrupted.

As I said, we can argue if the risk is worth the potential reward which is a possible argument.

I don't think it is bashing but merely raising concerns about something so that we can all find a solution together.

Point taken on having to find a new community .

I think the real answer is which is more likely hackable?  A small coin with really only one or two principle coders and gatekeepers or a massive system already in use by thousands times more users with hundreds more developers?  Put another way, Gridcoin has a marketcap of $23 M, we have a market cap of <$1 M.  Gridcoins problems have not been due to BOINC but their own software.  BOINC gathers research which in private hands has the potential to be worth millions to billions in the hands of big pharma.  Yet, so far, no major issue with BOINC, Gridcoin is faltering due to their vulnerabilities and we're suffering with a botnet.   Right now we basically rely on Rob, if he put out a mandatory that drained everyone's wallets in 30 days, we'd likely not catch it.  So really, right now, we're far more vulnerable than BOINC.

The only other viable option is right now is PoL and I cannot see a way where it would effectively hamper the botnets without severely affecting new or small users (or really why it should be used with PoW and not just throw in the towel and move to pure PoS).  The problem is a CPU coin is too tempting a target to botnets, but is too important a goal to merely abandon.  PiVX tried to hamper the botnets and failed, and decided to shift to PoS.  Most other CPU coins quickly jump to GPU or fall into disuse before their value is enough to be targeted.  PoDC is the major chance to not have to be PoS (or de facto PoS) without making a central "mining hub" that is overseen by the Masternodes and protected through non-open source obfuscation.


  • T-Mike
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    • February 06, 2018, 06:12:58 pm
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I'm having some trouble getting the masternode running.

masternode list-conf says:
  "masternode": {
    "alias": "t_1",
    "address": "35.227.54.27:40001",
    "privateKey": "...BCXZC",
    "txHash": "...ebda4",
    "outputIndex": "1",
    "status": "PRE_ENABLED"
  }

but masternode status says:
error code: -32603
error message:
This is not a masternode

How do I debug this? I'm using a hot wallet so I set up masternode.conf and biblepay.conf as below:

masternode.conf:
t_1 35.227.54.27:40001 ...BCXZC ...ebda4 1

biblepay.conf:
rpcuser=t
rpcpassword=x
rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
rpcport=9998
listen=1
server=1
daemon=1
logtimestamps=1
externalip=35.227.54.27
maxconnections=256
masternode=1
masternodeprivkey=...BCXZC

I'm also having trouble setting up the watchman:

[Errno 111] Connection refused
Cannot connect to biblepayd. Please ensure biblepayd is running and the JSONRPC port is open to watchman.

I have commented out the mainnet and un-commented testnet in watchman.conf
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 06:54:01 pm by T-Mike »


  • togoshigekata
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Thanks for the responses Spongel! I just got into cryptocurrency the end of this summer, this is all very interesting.
Ill have to spend some time and read the Bitcoin whitepaper.

On another note, a lot of the crypto community thinks Masternode coins are fairly centralized,
for example the head Bitcointalk Forum admin Theymos rejected us from his semi weekly banner auction (he doesnt allow ICOs)
"the architecture is maybe quite centralized (masternodes) perhaps it could be considered "an ICO with more steps""


  • togoshigekata
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I had a BOINC screensaver pop up when I was idle, was cool to see,
You can also click on each task and theres a "Show graphics" command


  • jaapgvk
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    • September 01, 2017, 08:02:57 pm
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I fired up two PCs for testnet. Will configure them tomorrow.

Personally, I think that the biggest thread for biblepay at this moment is the botnet (of which I'm almost totally sure it really exists). I also think that decentralization should be maintained where possible.

Sometimes is hard for me to see all the angles with problems like the botnet vs centralization. I'm reading everything, but I don't feel like I have enough expertise to really give good input.

And I think everyone in this topic is talking with good intentions.