Bible Pay

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  • Rob Andrews
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Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« on: January 19, 2019, 04:25:52 pm »
I recommend that we hold an emergency vote that Proposes that Team BiblePay be REQUIRED to participate in PODC  rewards (in contrast to having no team requirement).

The reason for this is TheSnat has discovered that 5 Gridcoin users are sharing UTXOs by sending them back and forth to each other more than once per day.

Although we have a feature to Stop this behavior, the spork is not fully enabled in prod because it would require a mandatory upgrade (to ensure all of the remaining sancs honor this setting).

In the mean time I feel it is highly unfair to leave this activity unchecked at the expense of our core team.  (The activity is penalizing small users rewards at the expense of the bad actors).  (We estimate the ill-achieved UTXOs to be rewarding 20% of the PODC budget per day.)

Therefore I recommend that we vote in the Team Requirement to be REQUIRED again within 48 hours.

Secondly, we have been very patient, and the original idea behind Not requiring the team was that BiblePay would grow in popularity by reaching the mass of boinc users.  IMHO, it clearly has not had that effect.  What we have observed is a few very large users (I am told Turkish) have been hogging the top rewards, and we have seen stagnation.  This is actually driving away our smaller users.

Thirdly, our PODC difficulty level has not increased since we removed the team requirement, it has decreased.

In light of this I recommend the sanctuaries consider these factors to vote the way you feel would be best for the community at large.

Vote YES for us to REQUIRE TEAM BIBLEPAY to participate in PODC.

Vote NO for us to leave PODC as is and Not require a particular team.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:19:46 pm by Rob Andrews »


  • klondike
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 12:36:31 am »
vote yes.....finally ..... this steps from grdcpool and diff users is scam
good job Rob


  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 02:55:17 am »
I VOTE NO.
I VOTE NO.

what about grcpool1,2,3 ? they are staking properly for their 3M RAC?

https://forum.biblepay.org/tools/podcstatus.php?cpid=7d0d73fe026d66fd4ab8d5d8da32a611
https://forum.biblepay.org/tools/podcstatus.php?cpid=a914eba952be5dfcf73d926b508fd5fa
https://forum.biblepay.org/tools/podcstatus.php?cpid=163f049997e8a2dee054d69a7720bf05

about 660 unique users for wcg: https://www.gridcoinstats.eu/project/world%20community%20grid
about 730 unique users for rosetta: https://www.gridcoinstats.eu/project/rosetta@home

even taking the floor, that's 660 unique users that are negatively impacted by this change.

biblepay currently pays better than gridcoin for the same amount of rac.

so, this would be a 50+ hit if biblepay was removed from the equation.

how many others are you going to impact negatively?
how many non BiblePay team members have registered CPIDs on the blockchain?
how many staked wallets will just sell their BBP if BiblePay team is required again?

There's been no analysis on the impact and risk of requiring Team BiblePay again.

IMO, more people will be hurt reverting back the BiblePay team requirement. exec podcupdate exploit was unforeseen, but it is allowed by the code written by the BiblePay devs. yes, the exploit by BM9hu373mUL4o9NiPB5j48jtD8oZomiUDU is unfair and goes against the spirit of staking BBP. Technically though it is allowed by the code.

At least perform a impact and risk analysis and weigh the pros & cons. Mandatory is not that far away. This change is very short term. Better to plug the PoDC hole and include it as part of the mandatory. PoG is going to replace PoDC, so leave the team requirement alone. You've already stated you don't want PoDC and PoG is the future. this change will just generate a lot of badwill, especially with grcpool members. Is it really worth the reputation hit just to stop one cheater? BiblePay really can't afford to lose reputation in a bear market.


  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 02:58:46 am »
Oh, and I just realized this is the wrong solution to the problem. You know why?

BM9hu373mUL4o9NiPB5j48jtD8oZomiUDU just needs to join Team BiblePay. Worst case, he can't earn GridCoin (which pay less anyway per RAC), but s/he can still earn ByteBall (now OByte). So, if you are motivated by greed, the logical step is to join Team BiblePay since BBP pays better than GRC. In the end, you piss off many people and you still have a cheater doing PoDC.


  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 07:19:41 am »
Oh, and I just realized this is the wrong solution to the problem. You know why?

BM9hu373mUL4o9NiPB5j48jtD8oZomiUDU just needs to join Team BiblePay. Worst case, he can't earn GridCoin (which pay less anyway per RAC), but s/he can still earn ByteBall (now OByte). So, if you are motivated by greed, the logical step is to join Team BiblePay since BBP pays better than GRC. In the end, you piss off many people and you still have a cheater doing PoDC.

We have a Phase 2 & 3 solution also though we can add in if this continues to occur.

TheSnat is monitoring the problem; if its more than 20K~ BBP a day we consider it something we need to mitigate (as I dont know if PODC will really be around for an extended period, is what I mean).

But anyway, we enabled the spork today that enforces coin-age in UTXOs.  That will affect *some* of the network and sancs by itself.
After this vote ends, we will keep re-assessing.  If the problem is still severe in 3 days, we will ask the sancs to upgrade so as to enforce coin-age early.

Another words, we don't tolerate this and will react now.



  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 07:48:44 pm »
But anyway, we enabled the spork today that enforces coin-age in UTXOs.  That will affect *some* of the network and sancs by itself.
After this vote ends, we will keep re-assessing.  If the problem is still severe in 3 days, we will ask the sancs to upgrade so as to enforce coin-age early.

So, can you explain exec podcupdate in more detail?

It seems like every PoDC update re-adjust my PoDC input to an output with UTXO target and a change address. Does that mean that PoDC coin age updates to 0 coin age?

There's only only BBP address for a CPID right? So, if I need to stake more in my wallet for 100% PoDC payment, couldn't QT wallet send non-PoDC balance to a new PoDC balance don't destroy the coin age of other PoDC balances? That way, you know the coin age of each balance. You exclude min coin age < 1.5 day (to prevent wallet hoppers that exec podcupdate once a day), and you do the math from block 1 to now for all the inputs & ouputs of the PoDC balance?



  • Rob Andrews
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 10:47:50 am »
So, can you explain exec podcupdate in more detail?

It seems like every PoDC update re-adjust my PoDC input to an output with UTXO target and a change address. Does that mean that PoDC coin age updates to 0 coin age?

There's only only BBP address for a CPID right? So, if I need to stake more in my wallet for 100% PoDC payment, couldn't QT wallet send non-PoDC balance to a new PoDC balance don't destroy the coin age of other PoDC balances? That way, you know the coin age of each balance. You exclude min coin age < 1.5 day (to prevent wallet hoppers that exec podcupdate once a day), and you do the math from block 1 to now for all the inputs & ouputs of the PoDC balance?

We take the average age of the spent coins to assess the avg_coin_age.  If its < .50, its not a valid utxo update and not acknowledged by the sanc to be valid (IE its skipped).

The actual address does not come into play.

Once you spend those coins they lose the coin age.




  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2019, 01:38:32 pm »
I wonder who is in favor of BBP team requirement? 63 yes, 33 no thus far.


  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 10:15:15 pm »
I noticed team RAC dropped from 14M to 4M. Next day, it jumped back up to 10M. I suspect the cheaters joined team BiblePay. What's the next step? It seems what I said would happen (they'll join team BiblePay) happened. Now that BBP team is required can  you kick the cheaters off Rosetta@Home and WCG?  Or will the mandatory in one week deal with it via the 0.5 day min coin age?


  • capo
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 10:01:08 am »
wake up guys, you cant call cheater somebody who is using production wallet as is implemented with all its functions...
if system needs just 1 podc update with 4hrs old coins per 24h then everybody who sent it, sent it correctly
there is nowhere rule that coins needs to be in wallet all the time or they needs to be your coins or what
if you forgot to implement this kind of rule it is your problem and not user's problem
feel free to implement new features in some next update and stop calling users cheaters if they met all requirements for payment


  • sunk818
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 12:27:44 pm »
wake up guys, you cant call cheater somebody who is using production wallet as is implemented with all its functions...

Nobody called anyone a cheater except me. If you have 10M RAC, you need 200M BBP for staking. If you only stake 10M BBP (10% required stake), do you think that is fair that you receive 100% reward when you are only supposed to get 10% reward?


Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 01:17:44 pm »
Regardless of if the system lets this behavior occur or not, it goes against what the system says it should do.  So ultimately, a user that was honorable would have said, "hey Rob, this is not working as you intended it to".

I think the real solution is for PoDC payments to work like this:

PoDCUpdate looks and sees what you need for stake given your RAC
PoDCUpdate does a transaction going for 110% of the necessary stake
The Transaction becomes locked
The next time PoDCUpdate runs, it checks if the locked transaction exceeds the minimum required for your RAC, if so, no new transaction, if not, it does a new transaction

When the Payment is triggered, it ensures that all transactions for stake are still locked (much like with a MN payout).


  • capo
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 02:01:39 pm »
Nobody called anyone a cheater except me. If you have 10M RAC, you need 200M BBP for staking. If you only stake 10M BBP (10% required stake), do you think that is fair that you receive 100% reward when you are only supposed to get 10% reward?
it will be cheating if you have 10m rac and stake only 10m and receive somehow 100%...
but if you stake 200m as needed (does not matter how), then it is not cheating, system is set to work this way


  • thesnat21
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 02:48:09 pm »
it will be cheating if you have 10m rac and stake only 10m and receive somehow 100%...
but if you stake 200m as needed (does not matter how), then it is not cheating, system is set to work this way

The window was larger for people who could not get on and update..   It was not intended for people to stake, and then move your money to another wallet and stake again with the same coin.

If you want to help the coin, buy the stake for what you are making.

What you are asking us to leave in place is basically 0 staking requirement.

Meanwhile over 700k of the rewards taken from people who are acting in the spirit of the system, and actually contributing to the coin.


  • capo
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Re: Re-Enable Team BiblePay Requirement in PODC
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 05:39:34 pm »
nobody will be guessing who intened what, if you want something, write it down to source code

btw i have enough coins to cover whole rac, but i dont have reason to use them all

i'm not asking you to leave this, change it if you want, if you change it, i will be using new rules - of course if somebody uncover them :)

payouts are not given by 'who has how big spirit' ...