Bible Pay

Governance => Archived Proposals => Topic started by: ALT-J90 on January 22, 2018, 11:58:45 PM

Title: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 22, 2018, 11:58:45 PM
Sanctuary owners,
This week I spent my time building a Zazzle shop for BiblePay using logo designs. It is basic for now, I aim to build on this project with far better designs, but I will need your help supporting the finance of Photoshop to go with my project. I will be working towards 300 products listed as my first milestone, but I do like the idea of 1000. Iím looking for your kind support in my project, please take the time to read more below.

I want the shop to eventually be a Christian based shop with hundreds of designs BiblePay related and hundreds of designs towards Christianity and Global awareness. I strongly believe with the correct TAG marketing it is possible to help direct traffic to the shop to make hundreds of users aware of BIblePay which can help our future if we find more investors.

Zazzle has a large Crypto shop community and a large community for global awareness. My main goal is to tap into both communities and pull them in like a magnet through smart TAGGING.
 
You can check out the ongoing project here; https://www.zazzle.com/glory_goodies

Features
-   A wide range of products such as electronics, stationary and clothing.
-   Zazzle is a very popular website and turned over $250 million in 2015.

Benefits
-   Large audience market.
-   Products are found through TAGS which means itís a nice tool to help get our name discovered by others using Zazzle to purchase goods.
-   Starting a Zazzle project now could be an advantage because they bought out their leading competition in 2016.
-   Having products, you can touch, feel and use helps you feel closer to the moment, thus more likely to remain a long-term investor.
-   My time making innovative designs in photoshop is not considered this is my hospitality to Biblepay, only designing and putting the products together in Zazzle is accounted for. 

Budget breakdown
American USD dollar being used.
0.00000039 per BBP calculated 22/01/2018 on C-CEX.
U.K minimum wage above 25 is $10.86 USD

Basic Photoshop for 1 year annual = $156 USD

So far, I have done around 10 hours work which produced 60 products.
10 hours x $10.86 = $108.60

I will be working on 300 designs and different artwork. So, to complete the other 240 products and artwork 40 more hours is an estimate for the future. Calculated like this;
10 hours made 60, so
20 hours make 120
30 hours make 180
40 hours make 240
50 hours make 300

50 hours x Minimum wage ($) = $543
Photoshop = $156

Project total: $699
$699 into Bitcoin @ 11615.74 = 0.060184
0.060184 Bitcoin into BBP @ 0.00000039 = 154317.94871795 Biblepay
Total project = 154317.94871795 Biblepay
 
About me: My name is Jason Davies, I am 27 years old British born but currently living in Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam. Currently living in the poorest district Tan Phu, Iím teaching English to 4 Ė 17-year olds in 3 different schools and language centres. For the past 3 years I have been doing volunteer work in Camboda, India and Vietnam along side either teaching or bar work that enabled me to stay on this continent. I have an IT degree but as I progressed in this field I started to feel disconnected, so I decided to take steps in my life and I threw myself at a government funded volunteer program. My life changed after that and I have been continuing to teach English since. https://www.facebook.com/JasonADavies90
 
Wallet Address: BJXqCYeH58K788bq67VC5jyHXi8MYnjNoY 
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 23, 2018, 01:59:32 AM
I find it sad and a little bit frustrating that the reddit discussion has been deleted as the conversation had started there.


I will reiterate the point I made on the reddit. As I said there, I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic as we all want BiblePay to succeed.

- Zazzle is not a market nor a marketing strategy. It is only a way to bring your products to customers. You don't have a marketing strategy by opening an amazon shop and base your marketing strategy on just opening that shop on the sole reasoning that "amazon marketplace is a x billion market". I don't think BiblePay will benefit from it as people buying from your shop will be people already aware of BiblePay and will not just discover and invest in cryptocurrency while browsing for t-shirts.

-I think your product list should be more limited and refined. You have for example a beer pong table which is (at least in the US) associated with underage drinking, college party and everything around that. This has nothing to do with as you said "Jesus drinking wine". I don't think this is a desirable image for BiblePay.

- You are making a profit on these items. You may argue it's not much but I actually went there and checked the minimum markup price and you probably gave what you make on the lowest product as it seems higher in actuality. You could also modify this markup anytime you wish. Assuming you're making on average $1 per product (accounting for your lowest and highest items), you would only have to sell 200 of these to make 200 dollars for example.

- I don't think your project really benefits BiblePay and I personally think a better marketing strategy would include ordering t-shirts in bulk and distributing them to people for free for example instead of going through Zazzle which takes a lot of money and is extremely expensive and we don't need that wild selection of products. I'm sure that would be pretty cheap to do especially in Thailand.

In summary, I think the possible benefits for BiblePay (if any at all) are really questionable and I don't think it's fair to ask for money to open up a store front on which you will also make money on.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 23, 2018, 02:17:45 AM
So because underage drinking exists it should ban products designed for adults? I think the way you view things is very negative. Negative communities get nothing done they just sit around moaning about any ideas that help put more fishing lines in more areas that have a multi million user base in cryptos, religion and volunteer promotions to raise funds. I don't think you realise the opportunities in this and its quite sad. I deleted the Reddit thread because I was told its better to post here. Reddit seems pretty dead there's always an active 20 - 30 but nothing happens so I decided to move it here to keep the discussion in one place in the hope its more active. I'm making pennies from each product someone bought 3 products and I made $1.03. I'd rather make nothing and keep it cheap. It seems a little crazy to me to see you feeling so mellow and negative over someone else trying to earn bread and butter, ive seen it done before and theirs many successful shops promoting other coins and their own. There's over 6000 coins now and i bet by the end of the year another 3000 to go with it. You have to throw your line in every single market possible for maximum customer reach. If your not motivated enough to support other peoples success and ideas then I think you should stay away from the proposal thread. You was very negative and insulting on Reddit and clearly proved you didn't read half of it or click URLs.  Or we can just refuse other people trying to make growth in a coin with their own business, lets refuse it all and stick to the rocket foundations, no point in putting in the fuel..... Your bad for this coin in my opinion.  If you think somebody turning little tiny amounts of profit into BBP is bad for the coin i think we should all PAUSE buying! LOL
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 23, 2018, 02:26:37 AM
I think your response actually demonstrates you're the one who doesn't read what I write and anyone will make their own opinion on who is insulting and who isn't.

Concerning the reddit post, I think a link back to it would have been better than just deleting it as there was some points made there.

I think I don't have anything else to add as you didn't read the points I made. As ferohers said on bitcointalk, we're not freelancer.com. Our budget is limited and we need to adequately choose how to spend it.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 23, 2018, 02:40:44 AM
I read your points I just don't think you see opportunities which is something I have repeatedly said. Maybe you don't accept my reply.

Edit: Every coin is tapping into every market, if you want to refuse because you refuse to help others in making some bread and butter refrain from the proposal area this is what it is used for.  I accept criticism but it's how you expressed yours, a refusal to help simply because shirts are making someone like 0.30cents. You made your point quite clear you'd rather me charge more which is a negative impact on poorer people, I get it.

Edit2: From what I know to why you don't like it.
1) It makes somebody money.
2) You disagree to an hourly salary  (You want slavery)
3) You think tapping into million user based websites has no affect on internet traffic

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 23, 2018, 02:59:59 AM
I still think you misread me as this was not my point. I will give you that I just don't see any opportunity for Biblepay in your proposal.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: togoshigekata on January 23, 2018, 09:15:48 AM
Original Reddit Post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7s467y/my_zazzle_project_proposal_discussion_url/

Rob mentioned on bitcointalk that he was going to buy an item from there,
Im interested to buy a coffee cup/mug

I think having BiblePay in the shop name would be good, as opposed to just Glory Goodies.

I agree with Alex that the items would only mostly be useful to already investors, but I do think it could cause a few others to become interested slowly by word of mouth / proximity (wearing BiblePay t-shirt outside and at events, driving car with BiblePay bumper sticker, etc)

Is this the best use of Marketing funds? Im not sure, Alex brings up the point that a T-shirt Drive could potentially be better.
Is it too early in our development to focus on branded items in a shop? I dont know

Other Marketing/Advertising being worked on or in progress:  Google Ads (Rob), Bitcointalk Ad, Reddit Ad, Website Development

ALT-J90 is very interested to help the community and has been posting a lot on Reddit and is looking for different avenues to help.
Does anyone have other marketing ideas?
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 23, 2018, 09:42:24 AM
Thank you for your comment it means a lot. I am curious to how I can make it more cost efficient, I have limited tools living in Vietnam I am here teaching part time paid in cash. I understand what you mean about the cost efficiency I just don't know how else I can set up on another platform to make the efficiency better and the price. i don't know how to make websites you know or any of the technical stuff behind this. I have qualifications in computers but it's limited more to design rather than websites and coding and building something like that or even knowing who to approach. 

After I left my education I moved onto helping people rather than following my actual career so I just don't have contacts or anything you guys are all I have in that aspect. So I hope you see I do have a positive attitude towards helping, I took the route of making minimum from it because since 2015 I have been surrounded by most people who earn $1 or $2 a day. I posted my Facebook profile any of you are welcome to add me. It's the only evidence I have to my background but my life is pretty much on Facebook you can see all of my background by adding me.  I am a very open optimistic person you're all welcome to looking into my life. I actually felt nervous putting together a cost thing i don't know what the work is worth. But I can promise you one thing i will keep continuously building on this project. You will get more time out of me than what I have stated in this proposal, a lot more time. I want to be an active member of this community helping with ideas from ground level.


Thank you for taking the time to read this message, I do apologise for it's length.

Edit: Yeah regards to the name i'd love everyones input on this. I thought of something random and catchy because the shop would have just Christianity products and cool crypto shirts in general. If you're all ok with me changing it to Biblepay i'll act on it straight away :)
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: 616westwarmoth on January 25, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
Here's my thought.  Take it for what it's worth.  But please don't take it as criticism, you've been active and it's good to see you involved!

If you run the shop at cost, then maybe you should be compensated from the marketing fund.  Whereas if you're running the shop and it is potentially profitable, then that is your choice.  I'm not familiar with the platform, but I'd be more in favor of you charging a fair price for the items and not needing outside compensation.

The only easy comparison I can use is the pool.  If I ran an outside pool and charged a fee, then I should not be compensated to set it up nor run it.  It should be self sustaining.   If the Dev or someone else wanted to run a free pool, well, that'd be a slightly different case and might warrant compensation.

Meanwhile, look at what you can do with open source software, there is a program called GIMP that has a bit of a learning curve to it, but is pretty full featured and does most of what you probably need from Photoshop. 
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 26, 2018, 09:12:24 AM
I can see both sides of the argument, Alex makes a good point, 616 makes a good point about choosing to be a free service or not (otherwise its a conflict of interest).  And I guess yet another way to look at it is: If we pay for this proposal in the sense that it is for the startup costs for graphics design, but his profit pays for his stores eternal existence in the future (as long as he doesnt Gouge users) well I guess that is yet another way.

I personally think the store itself is a good addition out in the world at large, but I strongly feel we should delete a few of the items, as I think they have a negative impact on our brand:

Kill:
- Beer Pong Table
- Party Hat
- Keyboard looks like a toy and has bad graphics


Strong Fix:
- The Jesus Value quality shirt with Jesus' thumbs up:  This is not very good looking with Jesus posing as a cartoon character, and I think he looks like a Genie or something- but this particular shirt could be very, very nice with one that is professional
- Use a different image for the womans leggings

Add:
- Hell is Real, somehow tie to BBP

Fix:
- Football Jersey could have a better design, I almost ordered this but I dont like how the logo floats up in the chest, not sure how to fix it, but that caused me to buy the standard Tshirt instead

Good luck, and thank you for your contributions!

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 26, 2018, 09:24:21 AM
I think the best solution is what I tried to convey to you on the reddit  and what 616westwarmoth may have worded better "I'd be more in favor of you charging a fair price for the items and not needing outside compensation."

Also, once your work is done on an item, Zazzle takes care of everything for you so there's no additional work needed for that product and you just get a "royalty" on the BiblePay logo.

Finally, I think the most important point is that it could then set a precedent. Should we pay anyone opening a BiblePay shop on Zazzle, Amazon, Etsy, etc? I can just see how it can be abused and I personally don't think it is a good idea; I think the potential benefits for BiblePay are also questionable.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 26, 2018, 02:53:13 PM
I think the best solution is what I tried to convey to you on the reddit  and what 616westwarmoth may have worded better "I'd be more in favor of you charging a fair price for the items and not needing outside compensation."

Also, once your work is done on an item, Zazzle takes care of everything for you so there's no additional work needed for that product and you just get a "royalty" on the BiblePay logo.

Finally, I think the most important point is that it could then set a precedent. Should we pay anyone opening a BiblePay shop on Zazzle, Amazon, Etsy, etc? I can just see how it can be abused and I personally don't think it is a good idea; I think the potential benefits for BiblePay are also questionable.


I think Alex is right, its the precedent we are setting.

If one wants to be an entrepreneur, then they should not ask for starter funds, unless you want to donate all the profits to the orphan fund in the future.

I however like the store overall, but feel we need to kill what I said above in order to have the store.  We shouldnt have anything to do with beer steins, wine mugs, party hats, or beer pong tables, and we should make Jesus look professional, muscular, the King of Kings (and not like hes condoning our sinner behavior down here just for using the BBP currency).

EDIT:  The compassionate side of me says, that if Alt agrees to take the bad stuff out - and we all agree its good for PR for the long term, then I would potentially vote on the proposal just to pay him for the time in starting the store - but in the name of Seed/Starter PR funds.  If he disagrees with all this and feels he is not setting a bad precedent then I would vote No.

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 27, 2018, 12:05:47 AM
Yeah regards to the jesus cartoon I didn't expect such sensitivity so apologies community, I''ll pull down stuff you don't like it would be good to have someone as a contact for second opinions of stuff before I actually save it as a design.

I just thought there's lot's of ways people like to see him pictured. So I am sorry.

edit:
From what you have all said to remove I have done it, can somebody please check to see if it's showing them removed already?
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 27, 2018, 02:00:23 AM
EDIT:  The compassionate side of me says, that if Alt agrees to take the bad stuff out - and we all agree its good for PR for the long term, then I would potentially vote on the proposal just to pay him for the time in starting the store - but in the name of Seed/Starter PR funds.  If he disagrees with all this and feels he is not setting a bad precedent then I would vote No.

I understand where you're coming from with the compassionate side Rob. However, I think this would just be abused and we would eventually not attract the proposals we would like. If some persons suddenly come here and post a proposal about creating a shop/needing some work and saying they need that money to feed their family, etc. When do we draw the line?

If you're thinking of it purely from a compassionate side, then it should probably come out of our charity budget. I am pretty sure that this shop won't do anything for us regarding Marketing/PR, especially in the long term.  It is also extremely likely that we see more BBP shops on Zazzle (especially if you can make a proposal for it) as it is easy to set up and has no capex nor opex costs.

I just think that the PR money could be better used. I remember there was mentions of paid ads on websites, facebook, etc. We could have bounties, airdrops which I think would attract new people and would be better use of funds.

I'm not sure if you saw it @alt-j90 it but I would more in favour of what 616westwarmoth said: "I'd be more in favor of you charging a fair price for the items and not needing outside compensation.""

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: ALT-J90 on January 27, 2018, 07:05:42 AM
Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 27, 2018, 07:53:07 AM
Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

I'm sorry to see you go alt-j90. I know that I'm probably the main reason for that. I don't know if you will see that message. I'm not sure if something got lost in the discussion? I feel it is fair game to question and doubt any proposal as you are asking for money.

Now what I'm afraid of with BiblePay is that I know that is very common for christian communities to be abused and taken advantage of, I really had good intentions into trying to protect the community and I did not wish for it to end up this way (you leaving the community).

For anyone who was interested in buying BiblePay merchandise, I'm sorry about what happened. I'm sure somebody will set up another shop and if not, I can put a shop there myself until somebody else does.

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 27, 2018, 08:45:33 AM
Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

Alt, I sincerely apologize for the work you put in this and want to apologize if we hurt your feelings, and want you to know that we didn't intend this to be more than constructive criticism.

I want you to know that when you first replied with your willingness to delete the Beer Pong and change Jesus image, I would have been on board, and I think maybe Alex would have understood the nature of the change.

You have to realize a couple of us aren't really the cross section of the entire Biblepay community either, we are just 10% of the community.  I know I come across relatively strong sometimes and I apologize for that.

If you do come back, please realize that one vocal opponent to the idea is not representative of the entire supermajority.

I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Rob
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 27, 2018, 08:46:54 AM
Zazzle store is down: When you click on an item, it shows as deleted.

 :'(
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Laurie on January 27, 2018, 09:47:03 AM
Alt, I sincerely apologize for the work you put in this and want to apologize if we hurt your feelings, and want you to know that we didn't intend this to be more than constructive criticism.

I want you to know that when you first replied with your willingness to delete the Beer Pong and change Jesus image, I would have been on board, and I think maybe Alex would have understood the nature of the change.

You have to realize a couple of us aren't really the cross section of the entire Biblepay community either, we are just 10% of the community.  I know I come across relatively strong sometimes and I apologize for that.

If you do come back, please realize that one vocal opponent to the idea is not representative of the entire supermajority.

I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Rob

I think it is a little harsh to make it seem like there was only one vocal opponent to this idea.  I saw criticisms and  feedback that could be considered constructive/positive in all responses by suggesting alternative ways to fund the proposal while still disagreeing with it.

I disagreed with the proposal, just didn't make a post because I felt that my thoughts were already well represented by previous respondents.

If you would like, I would be happy to recreate/create products on Zazzle for BiblePay. I have done this in the past for churches I have worked for and it is really easy. I don't need any funds or anything and would love to redirect the 5% royalty minimum to the Compassion/Orphan Wallet. As a masternode holder, I would just like to be involved in the community and volunteer if I can. I am also completely accepting if this is something you do not want as well incase Alt-J90 returns, which I hope he does regardless.

Cheers! :)
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: 616westwarmoth on January 27, 2018, 11:29:49 AM
I think it is a little harsh to make it seem like there was only one vocal opponent to this idea.  I saw criticisms and  feedback that could be considered constructive/positive in all responses by suggesting alternative ways to fund the proposal while still disagreeing with it.

I disagreed with the proposal, just didn't make a post because I felt that my thoughts were already well represented by previous respondents.

If you would like, I would be happy to recreate/create products on Zazzle for BiblePay. I have done this in the past for churches I have worked for and it is really easy. I don't need any funds or anything and would love to redirect the 5% royalty minimum to the Compassion/Orphan Wallet. As a masternode holder, I would just like to be involved in the community and volunteer if I can. I am also completely accepting if this is something you do not want as well incase Alt-J90 returns, which I hope he does regardless.

Cheers! :)

Sorry to see Alt-J go.  This is the place for discussion both good and bad of all proposals.  I hate to see a member leave due to criticism, but keep in mind this forum is much less public (sure, it's open to all, but most casual users never come here) and sometimes it's hard to word things perfectly to avoid the potential that criticism is not personal.

I would say if he doesn't come back within the next week or so, we start a new proposal for Laurie.  If you would send Togo or Rob or me a few links to work you've done in the past one of us will trigger a proposal for you to start the Zazzle Biblepay shop up.  If you have any issues with copyright, I am the legal holder of the copyrights (which at some point we need to correct, and transfer that to either the public domain or the foundation) and can offer proof that you are authorized to do that.

Your suggestion is the type I think should be funded.  Some set amount for you to start the shop up and then send the profits to the foundation somehow. 
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Laurie on January 27, 2018, 11:57:30 AM
I would say if he doesn't come back within the next week or so, we start a new proposal for Laurie.  If you would send Togo or Rob or me a few links to work you've done in the past one of us will trigger a proposal for you to start the Zazzle Biblepay shop up.  If you have any issues with copyright, I am the legal holder of the copyrights (which at some point we need to correct, and transfer that to either the public domain or the foundation) and can offer proof that you are authorized to do that.

Your suggestion is the type I think should be funded.  Some set amount for you to start the shop up and then send the profits to the foundation somehow.

I will clarify, I did not want another proposal or funds to start the shop, it really takes no time at all. Once the shop is set up, Zazzle really does everything for you. We can also have a product/design suggestion thread if anyone has a good idea or wants to purchase a product that isn't listed. I can provide links to the types of products that Zazzle provides to "customize". Just keep in mind that Zazzle does have design constraints and only allows for certain placement but other than that it is great! I already own Photoshop for my own personal and past business use. If you give me an hour or two I can have something up similar to Alt-J90 and then I can provide either monthly screenshots of royalties (if any) to Rob or whoever before using it to purchase BiblePay and transfer it to the foundation.

Just my thoughts!  :)

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: togoshigekata on January 27, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

Hey Alt-J90, I think you should at the very least be rewarded for the work youve done so far if you keep the Zazzle shop up. So please consider adding a proposal or editing this one for the base work.

===

Some general reading for everyone:
Evaluating How Much a Dash Budget Proposal is Worth
https://www.dashforcenews.com/evaluating-how-much-a-dash-budget-proposal-is-worth/
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: 616westwarmoth on January 27, 2018, 03:00:05 PM
This thread epitomizes why I feel most proposals should be discussed and vetted before the work is very far along.  Maybe Alt-J felt we were being exclusionary since we've paid for past work or had other reasons.   But it is because of the potential for misunderstandings that it would be ideal to go proposal first then work.

I would also point to my earlier comments that, in my opinion, any venture should be non-profit (or profitable to the orphan fund) to warrant payment, with the caveat that there could be some work that would be done that could be contributed back to the community that would warrant payments.  Such as, if Alt-J did substantial graphics work, used it for the shop but it had value at large to the coin and he submitted the files back to the community, then the work on graphics that was usable in more than his specific application might be compensated.

Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 27, 2018, 03:57:31 PM
This thread epitomizes why I feel most proposals should be discussed and vetted before the work is very far along.  Maybe Alt-J felt we were being exclusionary since we've paid for past work or had other reasons.   But it is because of the potential for misunderstandings that it would be ideal to go proposal first then work.

I would also point to my earlier comments that, in my opinion, any venture should be non-profit (or profitable to the orphan fund) to warrant payment, with the caveat that there could be some work that would be done that could be contributed back to the community that would warrant payments.  Such as, if Alt-J did substantial graphics work, used it for the shop but it had value at large to the coin and he submitted the files back to the community, then the work on graphics that was usable in more than his specific application might be compensated.

I agree with that. I don't think it's fair to say that "any work" should be rewarded Togo. That is a misconception that will probably hurt us more than it will help.  It is not fair to do what seems like to be "volunteer work", that hasn't been discussed nor approved and then give us a bill and expect the masternodes to just accept it because "the work" has already been done. It is also reasonable to say that not all proposals will and should be accepted.

You would probably raise an eyebrow if I suddenly came unannounced and painted your driveway red, telling you how much it increased the value of your property, telling you all the opportunities I am giving you and giving you a bill and expecting you to pay for for that because I already did the work.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: togoshigekata on January 27, 2018, 06:25:48 PM
Guys, your debating about 110 dollars worth of work for a 60 product online merchandise shop LOL

The combined time of us all talking on this thread was probably worth over 100 dollars...

Last budget we burned 123k coins, we barely still have any proposals for this cycle and you guys are barely commenting or giving feedback on the few proposals that are already out there

I feel like you guys have good intentions but are probably being overly critical given how very young the project still is.

If you guys think you can use the coins better, then please go ahead and make proposals and do higher value work.
But so far I dont see many people stepping up. We have to work with the little we have.

We've had this pricing and risk doing work beforehand discussion in the bitcointalk thread, I documented it all:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

I also have an unofficial TODO list, no one really has commented at all on work that could be added to that list,
Ive been documenting it (without asking beforehand if I should document it LOL):
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7esvpp/help_grow_biblepay/

If you guys have such great ideas of how the coins could be better spent, then please lay them out, execute on them or direct motivated people to them, but otherwise in this Zazzle situation, you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 27, 2018, 06:36:28 PM
Guys, your debating about 110 dollars worth of work for a 60 product online merchandise shop LOL

The combined time of us all talking on this thread was probably worth over 100 dollars...

Last budget we burned 123k coins, we barely still have any proposals for this cycle and you guys are barely commenting or giving feedback on the few proposals that are already out there

I feel like you guys have good intentions but are probably being overly critical given how very young the project still is.

If you guys think you can use the coins better, then please go ahead and make proposals and do higher value work.
But so far I dont see many people stepping up. We have to work with the little we have.

We've had this pricing and risk doing work beforehand discussion in the bitcointalk thread, I documented it all:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

I also have an unofficial TODO list, no one really has commented at all on work that could be added to that list,
Ive been documenting it (without asking beforehand if I should document it LOL):
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7esvpp/help_grow_biblepay/

If you guys have such great ideas of how the coins could be better spent, then please lay them out, execute on them or direct motivated people to them, but otherwise in this Zazzle situation, you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project.

Well the coins are not technically burned, they're just no created which is a big difference. If you read the previous posts, it also about the image of the coin, the proposals and setting precedents. I think if work is being done without being approved first, then it should not be a surprise if the proposal following it for "past work done" is not necessarily approved.

I think we will start attracting people in the "help/loan" section of bitcointalk if any easy work can be done and just have a bill given to us.

Finally, If we have extra coins or coins to "waste", I'd rather have them go to Compassion, Cameroon or Bloom so that we stick to our charity purpose and image instead of being freelancer.com
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: togoshigekata on January 27, 2018, 07:33:04 PM
> Well the coins are not technically burned, they're just no created which is a big difference.

Sure, but the bigger question at hand is,
Would it be better that those coins be spent towards work to help grow BiblePay? (even if its only marginally beneficial work) OR would it be better to make everyones coins worth marginally more?
I lean towards the former.

===

> If you read the previous posts, it also about the image of the coin, the proposals and setting precedents.

What is the image of the coin? Do we have a defined image?
Do we have a defined set of precedents to set or not set?
Does past behavior equal future behavior?
Are we stuck in one direction if we choose a direction or can we and will we change course given the circumstances at hand?

This is a loose/chaotic/growing project, we are the combination of everyone involved and the decisions they decide to make, and the decisions sanctuaries decide to make.

April has been asking what the message and utility of our coin is in her PR proposal and no one has even responded to her. Her proposal has been up for over 3 weeks.

===

> I think if work is being done without being approved first, then it should not be a surprise if the proposal following it for "past work done" is not necessarily approved.

I totally agree, did you read this? https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

Ill pull out the important counter argument:

"A large risk/downfall of the propose and wait scenario, someone could propose that they will do X, Y, Z, we pay them, and then they take the money and run,

in these back pay scenarios, we already see that the work is done and the value the work has broughten (so the person doing the work took on the risk and sanctuary owners didnt take on any risk)

I was willing to take the risk."

===

> I think we will start attracting people in the "help/loan" section of bitcointalk if any easy work can be done and just have a bill given to us.

I think thats a large jump/assumption, right now we barely have people doing work for us, Id LOVE to have more competition in proposals, sanctuary owners would finally have to put in more work LOL :) and proposal submitters would have to compete with each other

===

> Finally, If we have extra coins or coins to "waste", I'd rather have them go to Compassion, Cameroon or Bloom so that we stick to our charity purpose and image instead of being freelancer.com

Where were you last budget? I stood up and saw the budget wasnt going to all be used and last minute made a proposal for an extra 400k BBP to go to Compassion.

Alex, We are both, We are not just a charity, we have a budget that can be used for all types of work, development, advertising, marketing, public relations, etc etc, We are a Charity and Freelancer.com. 10% Charity, 10% Freelancer.com, Half Charity, Half Freelancer.com

=

What do you believe the purpose of BiblePay is? What is the image of BiblePay in your eyes?
Id like to ask this to everyone

=

Also I dont mean anyone foul harm by my words, I know debates can get a little heated, and I do enjoy debating,
I hope through this conflict we can learn from each other, we can find resolution, we can have our beliefs challenged,
we can think of things we never though about, and we can grow and become stronger.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Alex on January 27, 2018, 08:15:28 PM
I think coins are better not minted that spent on questionable proposals.

Although shady,  it is technically possible to create the unused coins at some later point in time.

From the creator of Dash:

"We have a predicted emission curve, that releases a very specific amount of coins. If we don't use the whole 10% allocation, the coins are simply not created at that point, but that doesn't mean they are never used in the future. I've always thought of this unused balance as our bank account, it's a dash savings account for a rainy day. By the time we want to access those funds, we'll have a really good reason and they'll be worth a lot. I'd rather incentivize the network to save then to spend."

I was there when you put the proposal to use the unused coins towards Compassion. That is why I don't understand why didn't bring up that point again when talking about the "unused coins" in your previous response. We have a really easy way to use them and don't need to fund any other proposal that pops up.

The precedent would be to have BiblePay giving money to someone to have that someone earn a royalty on BiblePay.

Zazzle take care of everything for you, it produces the products, manages the inventory, deals with payments and returns, etc. You don't even need to spend a monthly fee or anything else. You go there, upload the logo of BBP on a T-shirt and you're done. You receive your profit every time somebody buys it without doing anything hence a "royalty" on the BBP logo. I think that it would have reflected poorly on BBP if we funded it.

On top of that, we can talk about the image issue with some products, the possible negative PR and the most important, the questionable benefits for us.

If you want, we can go into more details on why it would have not attracted new investors for us and instead, BiblePay would actually be the one advertising his shop. (Zazzle users being mostly female, the large majority (all) of crypto investors being male, etc. - and no, it wouldn't have been an "opportunity" to attract female to crypto).

I am not opposed to funding past work. I am saying that someone doing volunteer work takes the risk of having said work not being paid for after. That's all. And no, we don't want you to be a slave...you chose to do work for free...

I'm not sure if you saw the posts before they were edited, but I find it a little bit sad to be accused of "you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project" as this person has been extremely rude and insulting towards someone who is passionate about the project and gave a lot to it already...saying I am morbid, bad and that I should just leave the community. Yet I didn't see anyone saying anything about that. Would he have the same comment if I was the one leaving?

Yes it a risk that someone could run off with the coins, that's why the proposals need to be carefully examined and have evidence that the person will actually do the work, qualification, etc to try to mitigate the risk. I don't think we will have any big projects done before being funded, only micro-projects.

Having a budget doesn't mean we are freelancer.com. I don't think this is what we want to convey and the people we want to attract.

I actually laid out in my previous responses possible ideas for a better use of the funds. I think bounties and airdrops should be focused on. No, I don't have time right now to execute them.

"I just think that the PR money could be better used. I remember there was mentions of paid ads on websites, facebook, etc. We could have bounties, airdrops which I think would attract new people and would be better use of funds."

I can only speak for me but I see the coin (its image) as an investment for my money that would fit my morale principles.

I am not sure if I forgot to answer anything else but feel free to tell me if I did.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: 616westwarmoth on January 27, 2018, 11:34:19 PM
Togo, Alex, you guys along with Rob have been HUGE and are making this coin.  I'm trying to do my part too, sorry in advance on the slowdown in video production.  Part of the issue I see is there are a lot of coins where this kind of work has no budget, so the work comes along slowly by those passionate about the coin.  We're passionate here, don't get me wrong, and we've got a budget so we can use it.  That's why I felt it important to start and maintain the "monthly" budget thread.  So we can see where we're at.

But the thing is decisions we make now, set a pattern.  Losing Alt-J is a bad deal, but part of being passionate is accepting criticism.  I've taken my fair share (thankfully mostly in PMs) and it's discouraging.  But I really didn't see the critique here being a personal attack on Alt-J but rather worry about the future and how we handle this now opening the door to non-passionate users trying to cash in.  So while I don't question Alt-J's motives at all, I do fundamentally think we should not be subsidizing a for-profit venture.   Either make it non-profit (by reducing the margin to zero or by donating the profits in their entirety to the Orphan Fund) in which case I'd be inclined to vote in favor of, or run it for-profit, use our logo without fee and charge enough to make it worth your while so as to not require funding.  Again, there could be certain things in a for-profit venture that trigger funding in my mind, such as if I were to run a pool and start making coding changes.  Yes this would help me, but this is also a benefit to the coin if the coding is contributed back to the community.

We've still go 15 days at least in this cycle.  Webster is talking about a new proposal, Rob hasn't submitted much on the coding side minus PoL.  But it may very well be that we are TOO well funded at this point and the best thing to do is to sluff most of it to the Orphan Fund while the coin is young and hopefully at some of it's lowest valuations.  The danger of setting too many customs or common practices for minimally valued things is, to me, a far worse use of the funds than shifting them to charity or even burning them.

In practice the coin needs to develop a legitimate legal charter.  That way I can transfer ownership of the logos to the Foundation, someone like Alt-J can do the legwork of setting up a Zazzle shop but turn the ownership and profits to the Foundation and perhaps the Foundation can grow beyond the coin to actually be a destination for donations.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: jaapgvk on January 28, 2018, 02:32:31 AM
Quote
Either make it non-profit (by reducing the margin to zero or by donating the profits in their entirety to the Orphan Fund) in which case I'd be inclined to vote in favor of, or run it for-profit, use our logo without fee and charge enough to make it worth your while so as to not require funding.

I agree with this. I also responded in the original reddit thread and have been following this discussion (I follow absolutely everything on biblepay, I just don't always reply, sometimes because of time-limitations, sometimes because I don't feel I can make a worthwhile contribution to what has already been said).

While I think it's sad that ALT-J has left, I also questioned his motives in the reddit-thread. Asking money for something you are already making (very easy) money on, especially when you take future sales into account, just seemed a little bit off for me. I think every proposal should be weighed carefully in terms of pro's and con's independently of the amount of BBP asked, and I think this is a big part of being a sanctuary-owner is about.

I agree that some proposals and suggestions get very few responses, but at the same time I'm happy that the responses we do get, are mostly of high quality.
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 28, 2018, 10:40:48 PM
I agree with this. I also responded in the original reddit thread and have been following this discussion (I follow absolutely everything on biblepay, I just don't always reply, sometimes because of time-limitations, sometimes because I don't feel I can make a worthwhile contribution to what has already been said).

While I think it's sad that ALT-J has left, I also questioned his motives in the reddit-thread. Asking money for something you are already making (very easy) money on, especially when you take future sales into account, just seemed a little bit off for me. I think every proposal should be weighed carefully in terms of pro's and con's independently of the amount of BBP asked, and I think this is a big part of being a sanctuary-owner is about.

I agree that some proposals and suggestions get very few responses, but at the same time I'm happy that the responses we do get, are mostly of high quality.

I hope we can have a new Zazzle shop, without party paraphernalia, and a good looking picture of Jesus.



Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: jaapgvk on January 29, 2018, 02:27:11 AM
Maybe Laurie wants to do it? If he or she steps back, I might it a shot. Shouldn't be much work, and I have the same view as Laurie: I wouldn't need a proposal and profits go to the orphan fund.

Maybe there is also a way to integrate it into the pool shop?
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Laurie on January 29, 2018, 11:16:16 PM
Maybe Laurie wants to do it? If he or she steps back, I might it a shot. Shouldn't be much work, and I have the same view as Laurie: I wouldn't need a proposal and profits go to the orphan fund.

Maybe there is also a way to integrate it into the pool shop?

If you want to give it a shot I am happy to take a step back.  :)

That being said, if you ever need help with graphics for anything ~ let me know, I would be happy to help!
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: jaapgvk on January 30, 2018, 01:00:03 AM
If you want to give it a shot I am happy to take a step back.  :)

That being said, if you ever need help with graphics for anything ~ let me know, I would be happy to help!

Well, you're the one with experience (I have some experience with photoshop, but not with e-commerce), so I think it's more efficient if you do it. I consider myself more of a backup plan :p But if you don't really have the time or anything, just let me know :)
Title: Re: Proposal: Zazzle shop directed at Crypto, Volunteer, Charity customer bases
Post by: Rob Andrews on January 30, 2018, 01:24:44 PM
If you want to give it a shot I am happy to take a step back.  :)

That being said, if you ever need help with graphics for anything ~ let me know, I would be happy to help!

We would love it, if you wanted to make this your baby  :D.