Bible Pay

TestNet => TestNet Discussion Archive => Topic started by: Rob Andrews on November 20, 2017, 01:27:35 pm

Title: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on November 20, 2017, 01:27:35 pm
Two of the top 6 exchanges have agreed to list BiblePay for a total fee of 3.3BTC in order to help us achieve our goal of sponsoring more orphans.


Should we mint a block for this fee during our mandatory release at Christmas?

Or, should we wait until sanctuaries are up and running and consider making this a budget item in our future PR budget and vote on this like a normal item next year?

(The risk is-- maybe BTC will be more expensive by then, or the Exchange May withdraw the offer).

So, this is one opportunity that looks like we may want to jump on, but I leave this up to the community.


Title: Re: Should we mint 2BTC for an exchange listing on CoinExchange.IO ?
Post by: klondike on November 20, 2017, 02:12:31 pm
best way will be wait for MASTERNODEs and used BTCs from PR budgets ... enough to see on others coins which was rlsed on best exchanges/markets after rlsed masternodes.

there was a huge demand for masternodes/POW coins when working together POW/MN

but its my opinion  ;)
Title: Re: Should we mint 2BTC for an exchange listing on CoinExchange.IO ?
Post by: tiras on November 26, 2017, 05:36:08 pm
best way will be wait for MASTERNODEs and used BTCs from PR budgets ... enough to see on others coins which was rlsed on best exchanges/markets after rlsed masternodes.

there was a huge demand for masternodes/POW coins when working together POW/MN

but its my opinion  ;)

agree. better slowly but surely
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: aikida3k on December 10, 2017, 05:40:51 pm
If we do 800,000 daily effusion rate starting in 2018, for the 2.5% PR budget, at 20 satoshi that implies 800,000*.025*.00000020=.004 BTC per day.   3.3 BTC/ .004 BTC per day at 20 satoshi implies 825 days to pay for listing through the PR budget.  If we go ahead and do the mint from the total amount of coins that will ever be minted, there is a better chance we will appreciate over 20 satoshi, imo.  If we want to be listed on 2 of the top 10 bitcoin exchanges, then we should go ahead and do the mint.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jaapgvk on December 10, 2017, 06:05:37 pm
I can see both sides of the argument. I'm all for a slow and steady decentralised growth that is voted for by the masternodes, but I also see the advantage of getting listed on two major exchanges pretty early on and getting more exposure (especially since the masternodes will be launched at approximately the same time as we will probably be listed on these exchanges)

I think the f8000 update is - as far as I can see - the last time we get an opportunity to implement a special minted block for a special cause.

I think aikida3k's calculation is something to consider. Because after f8000 it might take a long time to gather the funds to get us listed on a major exchange.

Of course, once the value of BBP increases, the available budget to do things that benefit the community and the orphans will grow. But to be able to grow, we need to get more exposure.

I, for one, vote for the block. And I don't think it will crash the market, because people will be wanting to get a masternode (may it be for monetary goals or humanitarian goals). I think this is an honest coin, with an honest dev, and an honest heart, and I'm proud to be part of this community.

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Alex on December 10, 2017, 09:15:25 pm
I already voted yes but are you allowed to say if they are on the top 6 -or even top 30- of that list ?

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 10, 2017, 09:23:21 pm
I can see both sides of the argument. I'm all for a slow and steady decentralised growth that is voted for by the masternodes, but I also see the advantage of getting listed on two major exchanges pretty early on and getting more exposure (especially since the masternodes will be launched at approximately the same time as we will probably be listed on these exchanges)

I think the f8000 update is - as far as I can see - the last time we get an opportunity to implement a special minted block for a special cause.

I think aikida3k's calculation is something to consider. Because after f8000 it might take a long time to gather the funds to get us listed on a major exchange.

Of course, once the value of BBP increases, the available budget to do things that benefit the community and the orphans will grow. But to be able to grow, we need to get more exposure.

I, for one, vote for the block. And I don't think it will crash the market, because people will be wanting to get a masternode (may it be for monetary goals or humanitarian goals). I think this is an honest coin, with an honest dev, and an honest heart, and I'm proud to be part of this community.

Yeah, I have a heart for slow and steady too, but what really convinced me to vote yes is the tear bitcoin has been on.
In this case I feel like we should take hit, dump the bbp and crash the market for one day, jump on the exchanges and then lose the "BTC RISK", as what if bitcoin doubles again over the next 6 months?  I was thinking that would kill our future orphan benefits (To remove so much later for these two deals at double the price).

This is also a no brainer in the sense that these two exchanges pull more volume in per day than the whole deal itself in no time - trust me we will have more traffic from this deal than it costs us, as I think the ROI on this is < 30 days :).

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 10, 2017, 09:26:28 pm
I already voted yes but are you allowed to say if they are on the top 6 -or even top 30- of that list ?

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

Yeah, one is big time, and one is pretty big time.

They are both each within the absolute top 6 exchanges by volume (not 30).

They agreed on a deal for 1.65btc each (roughly) as I think the upper management knows each other, somehow, Ill know more as we start funding.

Oh btw, there is a maintenance fee per year with each exchange, but we can talk about that later.  Its something like .5 BTC per year.




Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Alex on December 11, 2017, 04:34:17 am
Oh that's really good news then! I'm sure the masternode holders wouldn't be opposed to that annual fee anyway!
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: ferohers on December 11, 2017, 05:52:26 am
Voted yes because c-cex goes offline every 15 mins.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jmmc on December 11, 2017, 10:53:12 am
yes, pay to list
don't dump the BPP market
organize BTC donation
if we can collect 3.3BTC, I'll contribute to it up-to 0.1 BTC
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jmmc on December 11, 2017, 11:23:34 am
don't mine extra blocks
keep BPP emission unchanged
otherwise it would be very bad precedent
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 11, 2017, 08:19:49 pm
First off, I'm not entirely sure if the 2.5% PR Budget has been finalized or not.  It could very well be there is a 10% generic expense budget. The stated 2018 emissions are roughly 800M, so 2.5% of that, in round numbers is 20M BBP, which at 20 satoshi (.000 000 20) means a 2.5% PR budget would end up with 4.08 BTC in 2018, far less than the 825 days quoted above.

Two: Minting and selling 16.5M BBP would at this moment, exceed the entire buy orders on C-Cex and destroy the market.  Right now there are only .7 BTC worth of buy orders on C-Cex (for a total of 8.6M BBP).  So the only way to realistically make that work is by either selling the special minted block directly to someone who would be essentially overpaying by 300%.  In that case we'd be just as well off telling that individual to crash the market and donate the BTC to get us listed.  The people that would benefit the most from that would be those putting in buy orders at 1 satoshi to get a huge quantity of coins for cheap with the hopes that the listing on the bigger exchanges would boost the coin back in the moderate term.

Really, doing it slowly is the only real option without risking destroying the market and potentially shaking user confidence unless enough people want to donate to do it right away.

Again, getting listed on a big exchange would almost certainly be great for the coin, but minting a special block won't actually get the job done.


Yes, it means minting a special block emitting a certain number of coins, approx 25MM coins for the entire deal.

"Really, doing it slowly is the only real option without risking destroying the market and potentially shaking user confidence unless enough people want to donate to do it right away."

-- I would not have made this poll if I thought it would damage biblepay, or not be possible to pull off.  Its entirely possible if I back the deal.

-- Regarding setting a bad precedent, I have weighed it and this is the only time in this coins history this can actually happen.  And the benefits far, far, outweigh the risks.  This is a measured risk.   I agree, once we have sanctuaries, we will never again have an opportunity to mint a custom block.  In addition, this particular mandatory upgrade is really the only time we can squeeze this deal in.

I based the above figure on what I crashed the market down to pull a certain number of BTC out to pay for the downpayment to "potentially list us".  I am agreeing to take the risk on the rest of the deal.


Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: togoshigekata on December 11, 2017, 09:37:50 pm
Woah this thread has been viewed 1,981 times!, but only 20 votes, strange

The #1 thing in the bitcointalk forums that everyone has been complaining about is that they want BiblePay listed on a bigger exchange.

I think this is a very unique opportunity to get listed on 2 top exchanges for a really cheap price!

I too worry about the precedent this will set and hope we never mint blocks like this again.

Im not too worried about the buy orders on the exchange, IF we promote that this event is happening,
everyone will scramble to place buy orders and will try to out-compete each other for the coins (assuming we advertise that this event is going to happen)

Rob, are you open to giving everyone a few days heads up on when you are going to sell the 16.5 million BBP coins? I think we can get a lot more Bitcoin for the BBP coins if we advertise ahead of time so people can prepare, transfer their Bitcoin to the Exchange and set up their buy orders.

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Ichthus220 on December 11, 2017, 10:51:54 pm
I feel I understand all positions stated thus far and feel, at this point, that I trust Rob, and all the work he's put in to get the coin this far. Not only that, he's also willing to put his own money on the line for this deal. For these reasons, I voted yes.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: aikida3k on December 11, 2017, 11:06:12 pm
First off, I'm not entirely sure if the 2.5% PR Budget has been finalized or not.  It could very well be there is a 10% generic expense budget. The stated 2018 emissions are roughly 800M, so 2.5% of that, in round numbers is 20M BBP, which at 20 satoshi (.000 000 20) means a 2.5% PR budget would end up with 4.08 BTC in 2018, far less than the 825 days quoted above.

Two: Minting and selling 16.5M BBP would at this moment, exceed the entire buy orders on C-Cex and destroy the market.  Right now there are only .7 BTC worth of buy orders on C-Cex (for a total of 8.6M BBP).  So the only way to realistically make that work is by either selling the special minted block directly to someone who would be essentially overpaying by 300%.  In that case we'd be just as well off telling that individual to crash the market and donate the BTC to get us listed.  The people that would benefit the most from that would be those putting in buy orders at 1 satoshi to get a huge quantity of coins for cheap with the hopes that the listing on the bigger exchanges would boost the coin back in the moderate term.

Really, doing it slowly is the only real option without risking destroying the market and potentially shaking user confidence unless enough people want to donate to do it right away.

Again, getting listed on a big exchange would almost certainly be great for the coin, but minting a special block won't actually get the job done.

I went back and checked my numbers.  I based the 800,000 daily effusion rate based on checking the daily effusion rate from memory.  From memory, it seemed to increase about 1,000,000 or so each time I checked it.  So taking that 1,000,000 and taking 80% of that, I arrived at the 800,000 figure.  What I didn't account for, was checking the effusion rate 2x per day.  So looking back from the inception to today, we have approximately 141 days 7/23-12/11 with a total effusion of 279,534,159 which actually works out to an average daily effusion of 1,982,512.  Then I looked back at my notes, from 10/25 to 12/11 is 47 days with a change in coins of 110,161,108 for an average daily effusion of 2,343,853.  If we take the midpoint of block rewards as (20,000+5,000)/2 is 12,500 and with 205 blocks per day, I arrive at an implied daily effusion rate of 2,562,500.  Nevertheless, if we just assume 2,000,000 daily effusion rate and decreasing by approximately  20% we get 1,600,000, which is 2x the rate I had figured in before.  That would cut the time to pay for it in half.  If we do meet the 800M effusion rate in the schedule, that does imply a daily effusion rate of 2,191,780  which is higher than the rate since inception but 93% of the effusion rate since October 25.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: pewpewgoestheduck on December 12, 2017, 08:01:42 am
Was the plan to mint the coins and post them on an exchange or sell them directly to interested parties? Putting that many coins on the exchange would be painful. I'd be interested in buying enough to make another masternode and I'm sure others would be too.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 12, 2017, 08:28:30 am
I was told in a strict way, not to talk about it, I dont think I can effectively answer these questions!  It feels painful!

If anyone wants to make a deal on ccex, I can sell some of my coins in blocks around that level, thats all I can say.

Post here if you want me to put in a sell a few points below the market.



Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Alex on December 12, 2017, 08:46:36 am
Just for clarification purposes; Is the plan to pay the exchanges in BBP from the minted block or in BTC from the sale of these coins?
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: ed12345 on December 12, 2017, 09:05:17 am
If anybody is collecting donations, count me in.  My bitcointalk handle is noob101.  I am not a high income earner (teacher salary), but I am willing to give my 10% in money and 100% in support.  ;D
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 12, 2017, 11:02:29 am
Alex asked me to clarify a few things as long as not breaking the covenant with our next potential exchanges and upcoming deals for 2018.

So based on the supermajority vote and the pressure I was under to not miss the deadline, I made a deal with my own money and fronted the amount for the deal with a couple anonymous exchanges.  Im not allowed to say how much I spent or who these exchanges are.

So basically what would happen when this vote completes, is we will mint one 25MM bbp block to a BBP address around Dec 31 2017.  In the mean time Im willing to sell my extra BBP on ccex up to the date our next exchange go live, and place orders below market a few points if anyone is trying to invest in masternodes.


Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Alex on December 12, 2017, 11:38:54 am
Thanks Rob for the clarifications.

I appreciate you were under pressure for that deal and I think it's a big opportunity for BBP.

I'm not sure if it's possible but I would mint the block on the 25th at the same time as the go live for the masternodes and be done with it.

I wouldn't sell any of your BBP below market price now but instead would it be possible to do something like this:

1) "Take orders" (modalities can be discussed later) now from people who want to buy BBP at market price (24 right now) and just fulfil these orders once the block is minted in 2 weeks.

2)  Sell enough bbp from that block to recover what you lost for going through with that deal.

3) Send w/e is left (if any) to the orphan wallet.

Edit: Actually, a better solution could probably be this:

-don't sell any of your bbp now under market price-

1) We mint the 25m BBP block on the 25th.

2) You sell all the 25m BBP on the exchange in a way not to crash the price and take what you need to pay yourself back.
As Togo said, I'm sure people will be ready to buy it all if we announce it (on top of being the 25th so they can run their masternode as soon as they have enough coins)

3) Use the leftover -if any- to sponsor children.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jmmc on December 12, 2017, 01:24:08 pm
If anybody is collecting donations, count me in.  My bitcointalk handle is noob101.  I am not a high income earner (teacher salary), but I am willing to give my 10% in money and 100% in support.  ;D
thanks, so we can have so far 0.33 + 0.1 = 0.43. Someone else wants to join? 2.87 BTC still missing to the needed amount.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 12, 2017, 04:47:16 pm
Ok, I think Alexs idea is pretty good and fair.  I think with a slight variation we can KISS and implement a fair strategy.

Heres the plan:

Im going to notify CCEX of our coming mandatory (normally scheduled for Christmas), but with a slight variation.  Im going to ask them to halt trading - ie put us in maintenance mode - as soon as possible (as early as tomorrow). 

While they are working this ticket to halt our trading, Im going to get our mandatory upgrade ready (over the next two days). 

Im going to make the large block hit as early as possible, ie something like two days after I get the block # trading is halted.

Then, we as a community will upgrade with our mandatory and start working on tuning up the masternodes.

Then I notify CCEX to resume trading.

Once we know the exact date CCEX is back online, we will set up a mass sale here on this forum for 25MM biblepay to be sold on ccex.

Ill make it so that we dont sell below the "intrinsic" rate, that means we make it so we sell all 25 MM for at least 3.5BTC. 

If we sell this amount for over 3.5BTC, I will send the excess  BBP into the Orphanage account, and we will keep tabs of how the sale is going until its over.  It might take a few days to complete, but I dont want to drag it on as I want people to get a chance to buy up BBP for masternodes and get this over with, so when we expand our presence then we can moon.



Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: togoshigekata on December 12, 2017, 04:57:14 pm
You have relieved my concerns Rob! Good plan!  8)
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 12, 2017, 05:22:21 pm
You have relieved my concerns Rob! Good plan!  8)

Yeah, Alex gets the award :)

One nice thing about this plan is we have more than one chance to fix any bugs with the sanctuaries.  In the old plan, if anything went wrong on a certain height we were DOA until an emergency patch is issued.  In this plan, as soon as CCEX takes us down we can start preparing for our mandatory and if something fails, I can issue a new one - although, I absolutely do not want anything to go wrong, I want to do this once, LOL...

I notified CCEX to put us in maintenance, but it could take a while.

Im working on our mandatory upgrade now.


Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: ed12345 on December 13, 2017, 04:36:23 am
thanks, so we can have so far 0.33 + 0.1 = 0.43. Someone else wants to join? 2.87 BTC still missing to the needed amount.

Sorry to have caused a misunderstanding.  I meant 10% of my monthly salary, seeing as my yearly income is 0.6 of a bitcoin at current trading price.  ;D.  I wish I did own .33 bitcoin though :P. 
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 13, 2017, 07:46:03 am
Thanks for all you do.  Sounds like a great plan and one that mitigates the potential issues surrounding this.
Thanks, hopefully it all goes smoothly and thanks for helping out!

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 13, 2017, 08:44:25 pm
I just got a message that the deal fell through.  So I am modifying the client to Not mint the 3.5 BTC block.
(Im not sure yet of the reason - Im still working on finding out).

(Note, the block was for 3.3 BTC for integration fees + .2 BTC for service fees that is why it was 3.5 btc).

I have not received my refund yet, but thats on me, Ill update when I hear more about whats going on.

I just wanted to update anyone that was waiting in the wings - not buying BBP to realize that we wont have any special deal to buy at next week, so I didnt want to stop anyone if you were holding off.  Now going forward, everything is voted in by the sanctuaries.

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jmmc on December 14, 2017, 03:47:41 am
Sorry to have caused a misunderstanding.  I meant 10% of my monthly salary, seeing as my yearly income is 0.6 of a bitcoin at current trading price.  ;D.  I wish I did own .33 bitcoin though :P.
Ahh, sorry. Anyway, thanks for participation. As new plan was rolled out and direct BTC donation will not be necessary after all.
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: jaapgvk on December 14, 2017, 07:54:51 am
Wow, thats a lót of money... I don't really know what to say...

Just keep us updated and let's hope it's not a scam (but I kinda doubt it)...
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: klondike on December 14, 2017, 10:40:38 am
who is this guy? give us his nick or where he operates or where you found him.....

dont understand this listing via foreign ppl
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: togoshigekata on December 14, 2017, 11:23:51 am
This gives me a sinking feeling in my gut, so sorry Rob..  :'( I hope this all works out.

A core developer of Obsidian reached out to me on Twitter, his name is Alan, hes been following our project and read my latest tweet about the exchange deal falling through and was curious what happened, I sent him the link to this thread,
he offered to try and help us with the Exchange issue and verify if HitBtc is aware of us and reached out to his team's marketing guy and CEO,
Im in the Obsidian Discord now, and their marketing guy said he has witnessed this scam before  :(
Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Alex on December 14, 2017, 12:13:43 pm
I'm sad to hear that Rob :/ I really hope you get your money back quickly.

I'm slowly catchup with the news. I wasn't expecting the masternodes that early!

My dnsseed has been updated to only store/accept/return nodes with the new version Edit: Protocol 70709.

I will update the block explorer soon (still going to be the old interface since I haven't had time to work on the new one).

Title: Re: Should we mint 3.3BTC for Two Exchange listings on Two of the Top 6 exchanges?
Post by: Rob Andrews on December 15, 2017, 09:34:38 am
I'm sad to hear that Rob :/ I really hope you get your money back quickly.

I'm slowly catchup with the news. I wasn't expecting the masternodes that early!

My dnsseed has been updated to only store/accept/return nodes with the new version Edit: Protocol 70709.

I will update the block explorer soon (still going to be the old interface since I haven't had time to work on the new one).

Thanks dude.