Bible Pay

Archives => Archived Proposals => Topic started by: T-Mike on February 25, 2018, 08:15:41 PM

Title: Biblepay Charity Commission
Post by: T-Mike on February 25, 2018, 08:15:41 PM
Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries

I propose to start a charity commission to take care of all the in and outs of sponsoring children and the filtering of charity organizations. The sanctuaries will have the final say but we will be responsible for the screening process and for providing the Sanctuaries with the information they need to make a decision. Additionally, I propose we start a charity fund where it's purpose is to provide backup funds to the charities and support even more people in need. Biblepay does not currently strictly follow the 10% allowance for charities and is allowed to exceed that since it is Biblepay's top priority. However, this leads to under funding of other tasks that are important to the success of the project. In this way, we can support more children while the developers can focus on improving the platform to attract more people to invest in the kingdom of God.

Initial Road-map:
Secure Charity Fund Wallet - 4/31/2018.
Charity Tab on www.biblepay.org - 4/30/2018

Some background on me, I am currently working as an Assistant Program Manager at my company. I have 2 kids and a beautiful wife. I am blessed beyond anything I could ever imagine and want to serve the Lord wherever he pleases. I am still praying if this is where He wants me to be but He has already commanded us this,

Quote
Deuteronomy 15:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

I will donate all the rewards from my sanctuary until the 1st Biblepay Chairty Commision sanctuary is enabled or for a maximum of 3 months from the day the proposal is approved.

Proposal Requirement:
Charity tab on Biblepay website.
Donate all leftover budget to charity fund.
Mike as director of the Charity Commission. (If there is someone else you think that is a good candidate for the position, please don't hesitate to mention that person.)



Detailed Information:
1. Securing the wallet: There will always be two people who have access to the fund wallet. Both these people will exchange their address by sending each other their bank statement (minus sensitive information) and phone number. The wallet passphrase will be engraved in metal and stored at a secure location in both locations .
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: jaapgvk on February 26, 2018, 02:41:07 AM
Okay, this is an interesting idea :) I like the idea of supporting the charity funds with sanctuaries. Although I think maybe we should not have too many sanctuaries doing this. If we do, we will drive the value of the coin down because of all the BBP that will flow into the market. But that's a long-term thing of course, and it would take many years to get to that level. Who know how the Biblepay environment will be at that time. And we could always halt the proposals or request less BBP.

Same goes for the 'non voting' aspect. The commission can say that they won't use their sanctuaries for voting, but who is in control of the actual sanctuaries? Power can corrupt, sadly... I was thinking, maybe we could have the commissions sanctuaries on a PC that has needs some kind of 'multisig' to vote (and send funds)? You know, that at least three or so people need to give permission, before there could be access? But maybe that's a bit much, haha! And the same goes here: there's really not a lot at stake when there are just a few sanctuaries.

But I really like that there would be a team of people that screen and inform possible new charities. I've been doing that for CameroonONE and would also like to be part of the team.

Lastly: from which fund do you think the requested BBP would have to come from?
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: Cryptoshot on February 26, 2018, 06:09:35 AM
This is a brilliant idea. I think this will provide efficiency in the charity aspect of BBP, especially with the inclusion of the screening committee.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 26, 2018, 07:43:46 AM
Okay, this is an interesting idea :) I like the idea of supporting the charity funds with sanctuaries. Although I think maybe we should not have too many sanctuaries doing this. If we do, we will drive the value of the coin down because of all the BBP that will flow into the market. But that's a long-term thing of course, and it would take many years to get to that level. Who know how the Biblepay environment will be at that time. And we could always halt the proposals or request less BBP.

Same goes for the 'non voting' aspect. The commission can say that they won't use their sanctuaries for voting, but who is in control of the actual sanctuaries? Power can corrupt, sadly... I was thinking, maybe we could have the commissions sanctuaries on a PC that has needs some kind of 'multisig' to vote (and send funds)? You know, that at least three or so people need to give permission, before there could be access? But maybe that's a bit much, haha! And the same goes here: there's really not a lot at stake when there are just a few sanctuaries.

But I really like that there would be a team of people that screen and inform possible new charities. I've been doing that for CameroonONE and would also like to be part of the team.

Lastly: from which fund do you think the requested BBP would have to come from?

The multisig idea is great and can be implemented in the future when the need arises. Right now, I think the rule that we cannot own over 50% of the Sanctuaries will suffice. Think about how long it would take for us to gather enough funds for 100 sanctuaries. We can change the rule in the future but right now our goal is to have just a few.

As for the funds, I don't think it is too crucial to say which part it comes out of since it is not fixed at the moment. If we get enough votes per month we will get a payout.

It is better to start earlier with the sanctuaries, think compound interest. We could potentially have more funds for charities from the fund alone then the original 10%!
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: togoshigekata on February 26, 2018, 01:34:18 PM
I think this idea of using masternodes to grow the Charity funds is interesting!,

but it does put the coins into the hands of whoever runs these Charity masternodes,
meaning the network loses control and trusts 1 party with these masternodes and how they spend/use the coins from them,
whereas with the current budget system, sanctuaries control who gets coins from the superblock from voting.

So the question comes down to, does the benefit of compound interest outweigh the con of centralization of the funds.

But even so, when we do pay someone funds from the superblock, there is no guarantee they will use the funds for what they say they will do, so it comes more down to trust / building a relationship.

So far TMike has been very active in Testnet Testing and in the Discord the past month or so.

Also centralization wise, Rob is currently the one handling the Compassion Charity and is the middle man of the funds, so we currently all trust Rob with that process, but he does provide documentation of his selling of the coins and also we can contact Compassion to confirm our account with them and the number of orphans. But also, he still has to put up a proposal every month to receive funds.

===

Rapture coin I believe is trying to partner with charities and provide them each their own masternode:
https://our-rapture.com/giving/
But it looks the will Rapture will run them for the Charities and fund the charities periodically from the payments

===

Rob was also looking for someone for the "Director of Charity Integration" position
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7mj66u/hiring_for_director_of_charity_integration/

I believe jaapgvk did a really good job with CameroonONE and it sounds like he might potentially be interested in the role as well or in teaming up.

===

More questions for thought:

- How would voting on the use of the funds work?

- Worst case, What happens if you end up stepping away from the project or pass away?

- Is it possible to make sanctuary ownership or the payments from them more decentralized?

- For the work of screening and communicating with charities, communicating with us about the charities and maintaining/updating sanctuaries, what would your potential payrate be? (I want you to get paid for your work!)

- Rob, are you open to passing on your Compassion work? Or is that something you still want to do / be directly involved in?

- Any ideas on how to help charities with technical integration?

Just some questions, no need for anyone to answer, just things to think about.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 26, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
I think this idea of using masternodes to grow the Charity funds is interesting!,

but it does put the coins into the hands of whoever runs these Charity masternodes,
meaning the network loses control and trusts 1 party with these masternodes and how they spend/use the coins from them,
whereas with the current budget system, sanctuaries control who gets coins from the superblock from voting.

So the question comes down to, does the benefit of compound interest outweigh the con of centralization of the funds.

But even so, when we do pay someone funds from the superblock, there is no guarantee they will use the funds for what they say they will do, so it comes more down to trust / building a relationship.

So far TMike has been very active in Testnet Testing and in the Discord the past month or so.

More questions for thought:

- How would voting on the use of the funds work?

- Worst case, What happens if you end up stepping away from the project or pass away?

- Is it possible to make sanctuary ownership or the payments from them more decentralized?

- For the work of screening and communicating with charities, communicating with us about the charities and maintaining/updating sanctuaries, what would your potential payrate be? (I want you to get paid for your work!)

- Rob, are you open to passing on your Compassion work? Or is that something you still want to do / be directly involved in?

- Any ideas on how to help charities with technical integration?

Just some questions, no need for anyone to answer, just things to think about.

As far as centralizing goes, I still think that as long as we don't exceed 50% of the total masternodes that this is not a problem. And if the commission masternodes start voting against the rules, someone can always make a proposal to disregard the commission's sanctuary votes. Also right now, the sanctuaries still have the voting right for the commissions various functions. Meaning if someone needs to be paid for work, they will still have to submit a proposal and which charities get picked is still up to the sanctuaries. Since the funds are suppose to back up the original 10%, in the future we should not exceed the 10% allocated and instead draw from the charity funds if there is a deficit.

For the wallet, I plan on having 2 people with access to it. The plan is to get a safe security box in both locations with the wallet passphrases engraved by laser onto a piece of metal. That way is anything happens to one person there is a backup.

Perhaps the keeper of the sanctuaries could post a public profile, I would not mind doing so.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: 616westwarmoth on February 27, 2018, 01:12:06 PM
I really like this idea in concept.  I had thought along similar lines before the Sanctuaries were active.

The good aspects are pretty well documented, primarily compound interest and the hope that the coin appreciates in value faster than the Sanctuary returns drop (by both the deflationary emission schedule and the continual rise in Sanctuaries).  I don't see any real issue with the 50% limit, since 1) Sanctuaries couldn't be deployed very quickly while the coins price was low because a majority of the coin is needed to fund the current charitable obligations and 2) I don't share the idea that 200 is going to be the maximum number of sanctuaries.

The downside is as stated, a concentration of control and at the end of the day there has to be one owner of the Sanctuary.  So the compromise could easily be one of two things.  One would be a trusted member of the community runs it, two would be we actually give the Sanctuary to a charity that would be willing to run it.

The idea has a lot of merit and needs to be thought out, even if I don't think it should be done this cycle.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 27, 2018, 01:18:31 PM
I really like this idea in concept.  I had thought along similar lines before the Sanctuaries were active.

The good aspects are pretty well documented, primarily compound interest and the hope that the coin appreciates in value faster than the Sanctuary returns drop (by both the deflationary emission schedule and the continual rise in Sanctuaries).  I don't see any real issue with the 50% limit, since 1) Sanctuaries couldn't be deployed very quickly while the coins price was low because a majority of the coin is needed to fund the current charitable obligations and 2) I don't share the idea that 200 is going to be the maximum number of sanctuaries.

The downside is as stated, a concentration of control and at the end of the day there has to be one owner of the Sanctuary.  So the compromise could easily be one of two things.  One would be a trusted member of the community runs it, two would be we actually give the Sanctuary to a charity that would be willing to run it.

The idea has a lot of merit and needs to be thought out, even if I don't think it should be done this cycle.

I understand the concern is that someone could run away with the money so I noted in the details section about 2 people keeping each other accountable for the funds wallet. I think what we need to do is start a non-profit so that people will be able to put more trust in us but that's something that can come later as we grow. If the Sanctuaries idea does not work out, I suggest we should still have a fund to accept donations and such.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: znffal on February 27, 2018, 01:53:52 PM
I understand the concern is that someone could run away with the money so I noted in the details section about 2 people keeping each other accountable for the funds wallet. I think what we need to do is start a non-profit so that people will be able to put more trust in us but that's something that can come later as we grow. If the Sanctuaries idea does not work out, I suggest we should still have a fund to accept donations and such.

Hi,
I'm in 2 minds about this one. On the fence!
In fact, I really like the suggestion a couple of messages back that we "donate" a sanctuary to charity. That way the charity has a somewhat consistent funding throughout the year, and we free up our 10% for other charities.
If we were to run it ourselves I think a trust is the best way.
Nice thinking buddy!
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: znffal on February 27, 2018, 02:33:57 PM
Hmmm, I see that this will be in the "Charity" column of the budget.

Cameroon One has asked for a Million BBP, and you are asking for 0.5 Million. Rob also will aks for some for the Compassion Orphans.
We cannot fit all three into this months superblock...
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 27, 2018, 02:42:51 PM
Hmmm, I see that this will be in the "Charity" column of the budget.

Cameroon One has asked for a Million BBP, and you are asking for 0.5 Million. Rob also will aks for some for the Compassion Orphans.
We cannot fit all three into this months superblock...

If the 500K cannot be obtained that is alright. The main point is starting the commission.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: znffal on February 27, 2018, 03:13:18 PM
If the 500K cannot be obtained that is alright. The main point is starting the commission.

Ok, so it is kind of like we start this thing, and then every month whatever is left over in the charity column we allocate to the commission? Great!
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 27, 2018, 03:18:07 PM
Ok, so it is kind of like we start this thing, and then every month whatever is left over in the charity column we allocate to the commission? Great!

Yeah, it looks like in the short term it might be difficult to secure any funds at all. We need to do more work on the governance for it to work better. Please see my governance discussion in the general section.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: jaapgvk on February 27, 2018, 03:53:08 PM
I like the idea of donating sanctuaries to charities. Not only does it make them active participants in the Biblepay community, but I guess it also makes sure that the sale of BBP on the market is more gradual, crashing the markets less (but I'm not really good at market economics, haha!).

On the other hand, before we do such a thing, we should be absolutely 100% sure we don't get scammed out of our sanctuaries, because once we donate one, it's up to the people that get it what they will do with it.

It's interesting that there could be a commission that handles the sanctuaries, or the charities themselves could get them. Both have pro's and con's.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 27, 2018, 04:09:51 PM
I like the idea of donating sanctuaries to charities. Not only does it make them active participants in the Biblepay community, but I guess it also makes sure that the sale of BBP on the market is more gradual, crashing the markets less (but I'm not really good at market economics, haha!).

On the other hand, before we do such a thing, we should be absolutely 100% sure we don't get scammed out of our sanctuaries, because once we donate one, it's up to the people that get it what they will do with it.

It's interesting that there could be a commission that handles the sanctuaries, or the charities themselves could get them. Both have pro's and con's.

I think donating masternodes is something we could do in certain circumstances. The point of keeping the masternodes inside the organization is so that it acts as a seed or investment so that we have the required funds to not only give, but to sustain the operation. If we only give masternodes away, then the operational cost would only be available from donations. Right now, the operational cost would still come from the superblock, but in the future, it would be much more efficient to pay the operational costs from the fund.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: Rob Andrews on February 28, 2018, 06:16:52 AM
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.

Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 28, 2018, 07:05:48 AM
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.

The plan is to have 100% of the rewards from the sanctuary be a backup to the main 10% or go to another charity. In other words, once this fund is established, we should not have to surpass the 10% like we do now. Due diligence is done beforehand so the funds will go to whichever charity we choose. The commission will certainly help to perform the due diligence when deciding on a new charity.

I understand the centralization aspect, for the fund, we can break it up once it reaches a certain value to another person. As for the sanctuaries, we can also have different people be the sanctuary admin and forward the funds when received. That way if someone's wallet is stolen, it will only be a partial loss and minimizes the centralization.

At this point, it appears the fund won't be receiving anything this month, if we add a charity every month we might not be able to have a sanctuary at all for a while. That is why I proposed to modify the governance system in the general discussion area so that even if the funds do not receive the full amount we might have a chance to receive part of it. I also need to make a proposal every month for the 500K BBP correct?

I also added a proposal to donated the left over rewards from the superblock to the charity fund so none of it is wasted.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: inblue on February 28, 2018, 07:37:09 AM
I guess I really didnt understand the idea fully at first, I was under the impression 100% of the donated funds were going to go towards saving up for a
 single Charity Sanctuary, one where 100% of the charity funds emitted by the sanctuary were then spent by this microorganization on more small charities - like alternatives to Compassion, or Los Angeles homeless etc.

But after Luke commented on the budget not being big enough, I am now under the impression this fund would be asking for 500K perpetually forever to start more and more sanctuaries? And it would never end?  I was going to vote for 1.5M over a few payments, if 100% went to a charity sanc.  But I wont be voting for perpetual payments.

As that would mean we need to trust a centralized entity to run this charity, and remove the decentralized nature of our current DAC - We are forming a decentralized autonomous charity for a reason - so that not one single entity can be in a position to hijack the funds from the foundation and we can continue to operate into the future by replacing the tiny individual loss.

One example of this is Mike might have the best intentions, but if his cold wallet ever got higher than when the pools was 4 million, if someone coerces the money from him, he will just tell us "Sorry, it was stolen".  Thats what we are trying to prevent by having everyone control a small part of biblepay.  (Which btw, is actually fine Mike if you do run One sanctuary, or One charity) like me, I am the guy who handles Compassion each month, and I resist handling more than one charity as then I become a single point of failure for biblepay.

Maybe i need more clarification on the idea, but it sounds like the idea is to force all new charity funds through Mikes organization first, he does due dilligence then spends it.  I think that due dilligence is already being done as we take on new charities.  Jaap just spent a whole week of his time on due diligence for Cameroon One for example and did an excellent job.

I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: Rob Andrews on February 28, 2018, 08:19:54 AM
I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.
I dont think there is a possibility of changing the current maximum budget cap (of 20% : 10% to Charity, 5% to IT, 2.5% to P2P and 2.5% to PR) - as that is what we promised to the investors.  I know I railed for 5% for IT during inception when I discovered the dire necessity (the decision was based on the greater good, coming down to survival) but I am also a staunch advocate of sticking with what we have forever.  Our emissions rate, our deflation rate and our block cap and our budget cap per block - forever now, I beleive its set in stone now.  (On a side note you will see the next total monthly budget increased due to technical reasons - we based the old 5.7MM budget on the Maximum difficulty possible, starting in the PODC world, we will be basing the budget on PODC diff which is much lower so we will have more breathing room in 40 days, and also, our 7 min block targets will kick in, giving us more breathing room).

Mike, Im not sure I understand, you said in the general section you would want us to change the governance system? LOL.  And I still didnt receive a clear answer:  Do you intend to raise 3 payments of 500K each, for a total of 1.55 M to start One sanctuary, or do you intend to ask for payment # 5, 6, 7 to start More than one sanctuary?    And finally, I dont understand how other biblepay community members can have a say in future charity expenditures by Sanctuary #1 if they cant vote on a proposal to spend it in the governance system.  Would this be done manually, by You, in the forum, basically where User 10, 11 and 12 submits some type of Forum Post to spend the sanctuary money and You manually approve these expenditures (based on said forum posts)  without any voting system (such as in client voting for current budget proposals)?

Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 28, 2018, 08:29:17 AM
I couldn't have said it better, generally these were my thoughts as well.

But this thread got me thinking, is there a possibility to increase the superblock amount, at the cost of miners and/or sanctuary owners? For example, if we only took 10% from miners and 10% from sanctuary owners, we would have about 6,765,000 more BBP in a superblock, for a total of 12,400,000 BBP, which is more than double.

I thought about that also but the problem is that we will probably always be in the negative in the sense that even if did 100% was going to charities there will still be people in need. So the whole point of creating sanctuaries was so that we can also use a share of the 40% going to sanctuaries for charities and that we can slowly increase that over time.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on February 28, 2018, 08:56:20 AM
I dont think there is a possibility of changing the current maximum budget cap (of 20% : 10% to Charity, 5% to IT, 2.5% to P2P and 2.5% to PR) - as that is what we promised to the investors.  I know I railed for 5% for IT during inception when I discovered the dire necessity (the decision was based on the greater good, coming down to survival) but I am also a staunch advocate of sticking with what we have forever.  Our emissions rate, our deflation rate and our block cap and our budget cap per block - forever now, I beleive its set in stone now.  (On a side note you will see the next total monthly budget increased due to technical reasons - we based the old 5.7MM budget on the Maximum difficulty possible, starting in the PODC world, we will be basing the budget on PODC diff which is much lower so we will have more breathing room in 40 days, and also, our 7 min block targets will kick in, giving us more breathing room).

Mike, Im not sure I understand, you said in the general section you would want us to change the governance system? LOL.  And I still didnt receive a clear answer:  Do you intend to raise 3 payments of 500K each, for a total of 1.55 M to start One sanctuary, or do you intend to ask for payment # 5, 6, 7 to start More than one sanctuary?    And finally, I dont understand how other biblepay community members can have a say in future charity expenditures by Sanctuary #1 if they cant vote on a proposal to spend it in the governance system.  Would this be done manually, by You, in the forum, basically where User 10, 11 and 12 submits some type of Forum Post to spend the sanctuary money and You manually approve these expenditures (based on said forum posts)  without any voting system (such as in client voting for current budget proposals)?

Rob, I will post a reply in the generals section regarding your question on governance.

Yes, I realized I didn't answer your question afterwards but it was for perpetual. We can just do one but it would not be very effective. I would have to put in a proposal every month anyways so it could stop at any moment. It seems most people are just concerned with the sanctuaries aspect of this proposal and we can just remove it. The other goal was to have a small group of people to organize the charity aspect of the project and to create a charity fund which we do not have right now. And if people think having a charity fund is too centralized then well we can not have that also.

Regarding how the funds will be spent, I think we can vote on expenses that need to be voted on and one's that don't. Like when we need more than 10% for charities, we can take that from the charity fund and it won't need to be voted on. We can continue to use the governance system for how funds will be used, you would just have to input 0 as the payment and someone will have to process it manually. If you think that is too centralized then will need to find some way to do it with code.

I also updated the post to limit my personal donation to 3 months.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on March 04, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
Could the people who voted no please comment as to why you don't like this proposal?
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: jaapgvk on March 05, 2018, 05:58:47 AM
Could the people who voted no please comment as to why you don't like this proposal?

I haven't voted yet because I think we should talk more about the details before I can say 'yes' or 'no'.

But I like your last post. I'd really like to have a group that audits new charities and shares their results with the community. And I also like the idea to have some reserves to survive the meager months. Obviously, the reserves have to be handled by someone (or a group), but any proposal eventually comes down on trusting the person that proposed it. So, as long as the fund is not mega-large (say, the size of one monthly charity budget), I wouldn't have much problems with it.

But I don't know what to think about the masternode-idea at this point of time, especially when there will be multitude of them. Power corrupts, and that's why I like the idea of as much decentralization as possible in the first place, so there is no room for temptation.

Or course, it all comes down to economics in the end: would you invest in a coin which continually dumps half its generated coins on the open market? Maybe we can generate more money in the long run if we keep the charity budget at 10%. Of course, the charity budget is fixed, but I mean that in the scenario where half the masternodes are owned by a group that sells almost everything they generate, this will lessen the coins value (I think).

Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on March 05, 2018, 07:09:29 AM
I haven't voted yet because I think we should talk more about the details before I can say 'yes' or 'no'.

But I like your last post. I'd really like to have a group that audits new charities and shares their results with the community. And I also like the idea to have some reserves to survive the meager months. Obviously, the reserves have to be handled by someone (or a group), but any proposal eventually comes down on trusting the person that proposed it. So, as long as the fund is not mega-large (say, the size of one monthly charity budget), I wouldn't have much problems with it.

But I don't know what to think about the masternode-idea at this point of time, especially when there will be multitude of them. Power corrupts, and that's why I like the idea of as much decentralization as possible in the first place, so there is no room for temptation.

Or course, it all comes down to economics in the end: would you invest in a coin which continually dumps half its generated coins on the open market? Maybe we can generate more money in the long run if we keep the charity budget at 10%. Of course, the charity budget is fixed, but I mean that in the scenario where half the masternodes are owned by a group that sells almost everything they generate, this will lessen the coins value (I think).

Thanks for the feedback. As I said before, it will most likely take a long time to have that many masternodes, and even then, we can split off the masternodes to different owners.

I will change the proposal to say we will build one 1 year. Does that make you more more supportive of the idea at that frequency?
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: aikida3k on March 14, 2018, 09:41:57 PM
You'll disincentivize owning masternodes.  If someone is getting "free" masternodes from the charity portion in order to sell all the proceeds for charity, it dilutes the current masternode owners ownership and their returns.  As masternode owners we are having to hold bbp for price risk.  If we get diluted from free masternodes we lose our incentive to hold. 

My suggestion is people take their own proceeds and give them to their own charities as they will. 

Where did the poll go?  I don't see it to vote.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: aikida3k on March 14, 2018, 10:14:28 PM
You'll disincentivize owning masternodes.  If someone is getting "free" masternodes from the charity portion in order to sell all the proceeds for charity, it dilutes the current masternode owners ownership and their returns.  As masternode owners we are having to hold bbp for price risk.  If we get diluted from free masternodes we lose our incentive to hold. 

My suggestion is people take their own proceeds and give them to their own charities as they will. 

Where did the poll go?  I don't see it to vote.

My greatest dream for this coin is that it actually BECOMES the charity. It doesn't just give to a charity.  It IS the charity.  It becomes an earthy extension of the GREAT I AM.  It funds itself to do work in the world.  It actually goes through and around the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, telling the story of the woman who poured her perfume over Jesus:

Matthew 26:13
Mark 14:9

          Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world,
          what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.

No one that I know of is doing this.
But you also have to realize, that if Biblepay is to BECOME the charity, it has to grow much larger in marketcap: to 100 Million or even 1 Billion or more.  In the process, if this is to happen, it will make many of you very wealthy.  But to get to that level, you have to be a good steward for the investors and take care of their funds so they are willing to keep buying and holding biblepay.

Do you have that vision?
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: T-Mike on March 19, 2018, 02:41:52 PM
My greatest dream for this coin is that it actually BECOMES the charity. It doesn't just give to a charity.  It IS the charity.  It becomes an earthy extension of the GREAT I AM.  It funds itself to do work in the world.  It actually goes through and around the world proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, telling the story of the woman who poured her perfume over Jesus:

Matthew 26:13
Mark 14:9

          Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world,
          what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.

No one that I know of is doing this.
But you also have to realize, that if Biblepay is to BECOME the charity, it has to grow much larger in marketcap: to 100 Million or even 1 Billion or more.  In the process, if this is to happen, it will make many of you very wealthy.  But to get to that level, you have to be a good steward for the investors and take care of their funds so they are willing to keep buying and holding biblepay.

Do you have that vision?


That is a good vision but I'm not sure it's BIblepay's visions as a community. When we are more organized and have an efficient decentralized governance system then we can do things like having our own charity.

I will make another proposal next round to remove the masternodes requirement and just have the charity fund as that seems to be the main problem people have with it.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission and Sanctuaries
Post by: jaapgvk on March 20, 2018, 06:56:52 AM

That is a good vision but I'm not sure it's BIblepay's visions as a community. When we are more organized and have an efficient decentralized governance system then we can do things like having our own charity.

I will make another proposal next round to remove the masternodes requirement and just have the charity fund as that seems to be the main problem people have with it.

Yeah, I think that's great! Have some back-up funds to ensure that we can always pay the bills on our current charities, and also have a group of people that have the capacity to do background-checks on potential new charities.

I must say, I still do like the idea of donating sanctuaries to charities, so they can have a steady stream of income in BBP. But I must also recognize the economics involved, because that would also mean that there will be a continuous 'dumping' on the market, and why would anyone invest in a coin that does that?

Having said that, I think that investing in Biblepay is simultaneously giving to the needy, so ROI shouldn't be the number one reason to invest in us.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission
Post by: sunk818 on May 14, 2018, 01:57:13 PM
One of my life dreams is build a missionary trust where funds are released on a monthly or yearly basis. Whatever that value may be is irrelevant to me. Just that the trust is self-sustaining and gives (hopefully) a steady stream of funds while maintaining itself. I see Sanctuaries being able to play that role. Churches could pool to make a sanctuary and then fund the church financials or give to specific missions (charities, missionary in a specific country) to spread the great commandment in its daily form.

Mark 12 ESV 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Financials should only be a concern in that it may multiply our ability to carry out the work Jesus called us to do... not to enrich us materially. This is a harsh statement, but IMO, those that hold masternodes specifically to enrich themselves only are not aligned with the Bible.
Title: Re: Biblepay Charity Commission
Post by: jaapgvk on May 17, 2018, 12:53:24 PM
One of my life dreams is build a missionary trust where funds are released on a monthly or yearly basis. Whatever that value may be is irrelevant to me. Just that the trust is self-sustaining and gives (hopefully) a steady stream of funds while maintaining itself. I see Sanctuaries being able to play that role. Churches could pool to make a sanctuary and then fund the church financials or give to specific missions (charities, missionary in a specific country) to spread the great commandment in its daily form.

Mark 12 ESV 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Financials should only be a concern in that it may multiply our ability to carry out the work Jesus called us to do... not to enrich us materially. This is a harsh statement, but IMO, those that hold masternodes specifically to enrich themselves only are not aligned with the Bible.

I agree with this, and it's also why I think that having charities with their own Sanctuaries is something we should applaud at BiblePay. It's a vote of confidence. I can't wait until a charity decides to submit a proposal to buy their own Sanctuary, and I hope that more will follow.

A side-note is that BiblePay probably won't be able to sustain itself when most of Sanctuary-owners are charities.

Paradoxically, the great thing about BiblePay - in my opinion - is that it's open to profiteers. What I mean by this is that an investment in BiblePay goes hand in hand with the thought about what your personal profit actually means. What does it mean for yourself to own a Sanctuary. And this question strikes an accord with myself personally, because I will fully acknowledge that I'm partly here because I see an investment in BiblePay as an investment in my own future.

So, in conclusion, I think that in order for BiblePay to survive, I think we need both investors and charities.