Bible Pay

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Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

I'm sorry to see you go alt-j90. I know that I'm probably the main reason for that. I don't know if you will see that message. I'm not sure if something got lost in the discussion? I feel it is fair game to question and doubt any proposal as you are asking for money.

Now what I'm afraid of with BiblePay is that I know that is very common for christian communities to be abused and taken advantage of, I really had good intentions into trying to protect the community and I did not wish for it to end up this way (you leaving the community).

For anyone who was interested in buying BiblePay merchandise, I'm sorry about what happened. I'm sure somebody will set up another shop and if not, I can put a shop there myself until somebody else does.



  • Rob A.
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Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

Alt, I sincerely apologize for the work you put in this and want to apologize if we hurt your feelings, and want you to know that we didn't intend this to be more than constructive criticism.

I want you to know that when you first replied with your willingness to delete the Beer Pong and change Jesus image, I would have been on board, and I think maybe Alex would have understood the nature of the change.

You have to realize a couple of us aren't really the cross section of the entire Biblepay community either, we are just 10% of the community.  I know I come across relatively strong sometimes and I apologize for that.

If you do come back, please realize that one vocal opponent to the idea is not representative of the entire supermajority.

I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Rob


  • Rob A.
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Zazzle store is down: When you click on an item, it shows as deleted.

 :'(


  • Laurie
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Alt, I sincerely apologize for the work you put in this and want to apologize if we hurt your feelings, and want you to know that we didn't intend this to be more than constructive criticism.

I want you to know that when you first replied with your willingness to delete the Beer Pong and change Jesus image, I would have been on board, and I think maybe Alex would have understood the nature of the change.

You have to realize a couple of us aren't really the cross section of the entire Biblepay community either, we are just 10% of the community.  I know I come across relatively strong sometimes and I apologize for that.

If you do come back, please realize that one vocal opponent to the idea is not representative of the entire supermajority.

I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Rob

I think it is a little harsh to make it seem like there was only one vocal opponent to this idea.  I saw criticisms and  feedback that could be considered constructive/positive in all responses by suggesting alternative ways to fund the proposal while still disagreeing with it.

I disagreed with the proposal, just didn't make a post because I felt that my thoughts were already well represented by previous respondents.

If you would like, I would be happy to recreate/create products on Zazzle for BiblePay. I have done this in the past for churches I have worked for and it is really easy. I don't need any funds or anything and would love to redirect the 5% royalty minimum to the Compassion/Orphan Wallet. As a masternode holder, I would just like to be involved in the community and volunteer if I can. I am also completely accepting if this is something you do not want as well incase Alt-J90 returns, which I hope he does regardless.

Cheers! :)


  • 616westwarmoth
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I think it is a little harsh to make it seem like there was only one vocal opponent to this idea.  I saw criticisms and  feedback that could be considered constructive/positive in all responses by suggesting alternative ways to fund the proposal while still disagreeing with it.

I disagreed with the proposal, just didn't make a post because I felt that my thoughts were already well represented by previous respondents.

If you would like, I would be happy to recreate/create products on Zazzle for BiblePay. I have done this in the past for churches I have worked for and it is really easy. I don't need any funds or anything and would love to redirect the 5% royalty minimum to the Compassion/Orphan Wallet. As a masternode holder, I would just like to be involved in the community and volunteer if I can. I am also completely accepting if this is something you do not want as well incase Alt-J90 returns, which I hope he does regardless.

Cheers! :)

Sorry to see Alt-J go.  This is the place for discussion both good and bad of all proposals.  I hate to see a member leave due to criticism, but keep in mind this forum is much less public (sure, it's open to all, but most casual users never come here) and sometimes it's hard to word things perfectly to avoid the potential that criticism is not personal.

I would say if he doesn't come back within the next week or so, we start a new proposal for Laurie.  If you would send Togo or Rob or me a few links to work you've done in the past one of us will trigger a proposal for you to start the Zazzle Biblepay shop up.  If you have any issues with copyright, I am the legal holder of the copyrights (which at some point we need to correct, and transfer that to either the public domain or the foundation) and can offer proof that you are authorized to do that.

Your suggestion is the type I think should be funded.  Some set amount for you to start the shop up and then send the profits to the foundation somehow. 


  • Laurie
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I would say if he doesn't come back within the next week or so, we start a new proposal for Laurie.  If you would send Togo or Rob or me a few links to work you've done in the past one of us will trigger a proposal for you to start the Zazzle Biblepay shop up.  If you have any issues with copyright, I am the legal holder of the copyrights (which at some point we need to correct, and transfer that to either the public domain or the foundation) and can offer proof that you are authorized to do that.

Your suggestion is the type I think should be funded.  Some set amount for you to start the shop up and then send the profits to the foundation somehow.

I will clarify, I did not want another proposal or funds to start the shop, it really takes no time at all. Once the shop is set up, Zazzle really does everything for you. We can also have a product/design suggestion thread if anyone has a good idea or wants to purchase a product that isn't listed. I can provide links to the types of products that Zazzle provides to "customize". Just keep in mind that Zazzle does have design constraints and only allows for certain placement but other than that it is great! I already own Photoshop for my own personal and past business use. If you give me an hour or two I can have something up similar to Alt-J90 and then I can provide either monthly screenshots of royalties (if any) to Rob or whoever before using it to purchase BiblePay and transfer it to the foundation.

Just my thoughts!  :)



  • togoshigekata
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Self gains only?

EDIT - Shop gone.

Goodbye, take care all the best in your futures. I am moving on to find a less morbid community. I would of just removed the thread but with it being at the top I couldn't, all the best in your futures but I can't stay around a community like this.

Hey Alt-J90, I think you should at the very least be rewarded for the work youve done so far if you keep the Zazzle shop up. So please consider adding a proposal or editing this one for the base work.

===

Some general reading for everyone:
Evaluating How Much a Dash Budget Proposal is Worth
https://www.dashforcenews.com/evaluating-how-much-a-dash-budget-proposal-is-worth/


  • 616westwarmoth
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This thread epitomizes why I feel most proposals should be discussed and vetted before the work is very far along.  Maybe Alt-J felt we were being exclusionary since we've paid for past work or had other reasons.   But it is because of the potential for misunderstandings that it would be ideal to go proposal first then work.

I would also point to my earlier comments that, in my opinion, any venture should be non-profit (or profitable to the orphan fund) to warrant payment, with the caveat that there could be some work that would be done that could be contributed back to the community that would warrant payments.  Such as, if Alt-J did substantial graphics work, used it for the shop but it had value at large to the coin and he submitted the files back to the community, then the work on graphics that was usable in more than his specific application might be compensated.



This thread epitomizes why I feel most proposals should be discussed and vetted before the work is very far along.  Maybe Alt-J felt we were being exclusionary since we've paid for past work or had other reasons.   But it is because of the potential for misunderstandings that it would be ideal to go proposal first then work.

I would also point to my earlier comments that, in my opinion, any venture should be non-profit (or profitable to the orphan fund) to warrant payment, with the caveat that there could be some work that would be done that could be contributed back to the community that would warrant payments.  Such as, if Alt-J did substantial graphics work, used it for the shop but it had value at large to the coin and he submitted the files back to the community, then the work on graphics that was usable in more than his specific application might be compensated.

I agree with that. I don't think it's fair to say that "any work" should be rewarded Togo. That is a misconception that will probably hurt us more than it will help.  It is not fair to do what seems like to be "volunteer work", that hasn't been discussed nor approved and then give us a bill and expect the masternodes to just accept it because "the work" has already been done. It is also reasonable to say that not all proposals will and should be accepted.

You would probably raise an eyebrow if I suddenly came unannounced and painted your driveway red, telling you how much it increased the value of your property, telling you all the opportunities I am giving you and giving you a bill and expecting you to pay for for that because I already did the work.


  • togoshigekata
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Guys, your debating about 110 dollars worth of work for a 60 product online merchandise shop LOL

The combined time of us all talking on this thread was probably worth over 100 dollars...

Last budget we burned 123k coins, we barely still have any proposals for this cycle and you guys are barely commenting or giving feedback on the few proposals that are already out there

I feel like you guys have good intentions but are probably being overly critical given how very young the project still is.

If you guys think you can use the coins better, then please go ahead and make proposals and do higher value work.
But so far I dont see many people stepping up. We have to work with the little we have.

We've had this pricing and risk doing work beforehand discussion in the bitcointalk thread, I documented it all:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

I also have an unofficial TODO list, no one really has commented at all on work that could be added to that list,
Ive been documenting it (without asking beforehand if I should document it LOL):
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7esvpp/help_grow_biblepay/

If you guys have such great ideas of how the coins could be better spent, then please lay them out, execute on them or direct motivated people to them, but otherwise in this Zazzle situation, you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project.


Guys, your debating about 110 dollars worth of work for a 60 product online merchandise shop LOL

The combined time of us all talking on this thread was probably worth over 100 dollars...

Last budget we burned 123k coins, we barely still have any proposals for this cycle and you guys are barely commenting or giving feedback on the few proposals that are already out there

I feel like you guys have good intentions but are probably being overly critical given how very young the project still is.

If you guys think you can use the coins better, then please go ahead and make proposals and do higher value work.
But so far I dont see many people stepping up. We have to work with the little we have.

We've had this pricing and risk doing work beforehand discussion in the bitcointalk thread, I documented it all:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

I also have an unofficial TODO list, no one really has commented at all on work that could be added to that list,
Ive been documenting it (without asking beforehand if I should document it LOL):
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7esvpp/help_grow_biblepay/

If you guys have such great ideas of how the coins could be better spent, then please lay them out, execute on them or direct motivated people to them, but otherwise in this Zazzle situation, you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project.

Well the coins are not technically burned, they're just no created which is a big difference. If you read the previous posts, it also about the image of the coin, the proposals and setting precedents. I think if work is being done without being approved first, then it should not be a surprise if the proposal following it for "past work done" is not necessarily approved.

I think we will start attracting people in the "help/loan" section of bitcointalk if any easy work can be done and just have a bill given to us.

Finally, If we have extra coins or coins to "waste", I'd rather have them go to Compassion, Cameroon or Bloom so that we stick to our charity purpose and image instead of being freelancer.com


  • togoshigekata
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> Well the coins are not technically burned, they're just no created which is a big difference.

Sure, but the bigger question at hand is,
Would it be better that those coins be spent towards work to help grow BiblePay? (even if its only marginally beneficial work) OR would it be better to make everyones coins worth marginally more?
I lean towards the former.

===

> If you read the previous posts, it also about the image of the coin, the proposals and setting precedents.

What is the image of the coin? Do we have a defined image?
Do we have a defined set of precedents to set or not set?
Does past behavior equal future behavior?
Are we stuck in one direction if we choose a direction or can we and will we change course given the circumstances at hand?

This is a loose/chaotic/growing project, we are the combination of everyone involved and the decisions they decide to make, and the decisions sanctuaries decide to make.

April has been asking what the message and utility of our coin is in her PR proposal and no one has even responded to her. Her proposal has been up for over 3 weeks.

===

> I think if work is being done without being approved first, then it should not be a surprise if the proposal following it for "past work done" is not necessarily approved.

I totally agree, did you read this? https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7m6rip/proposal_discussion_pricing_back_pay_structure/

Ill pull out the important counter argument:

"A large risk/downfall of the propose and wait scenario, someone could propose that they will do X, Y, Z, we pay them, and then they take the money and run,

in these back pay scenarios, we already see that the work is done and the value the work has broughten (so the person doing the work took on the risk and sanctuary owners didnt take on any risk)

I was willing to take the risk."

===

> I think we will start attracting people in the "help/loan" section of bitcointalk if any easy work can be done and just have a bill given to us.

I think thats a large jump/assumption, right now we barely have people doing work for us, Id LOVE to have more competition in proposals, sanctuary owners would finally have to put in more work LOL :) and proposal submitters would have to compete with each other

===

> Finally, If we have extra coins or coins to "waste", I'd rather have them go to Compassion, Cameroon or Bloom so that we stick to our charity purpose and image instead of being freelancer.com

Where were you last budget? I stood up and saw the budget wasnt going to all be used and last minute made a proposal for an extra 400k BBP to go to Compassion.

Alex, We are both, We are not just a charity, we have a budget that can be used for all types of work, development, advertising, marketing, public relations, etc etc, We are a Charity and Freelancer.com. 10% Charity, 10% Freelancer.com, Half Charity, Half Freelancer.com

=

What do you believe the purpose of BiblePay is? What is the image of BiblePay in your eyes?
Id like to ask this to everyone

=

Also I dont mean anyone foul harm by my words, I know debates can get a little heated, and I do enjoy debating,
I hope through this conflict we can learn from each other, we can find resolution, we can have our beliefs challenged,
we can think of things we never though about, and we can grow and become stronger.


I think coins are better not minted that spent on questionable proposals.

Although shady,  it is technically possible to create the unused coins at some later point in time.

From the creator of Dash:

"We have a predicted emission curve, that releases a very specific amount of coins. If we don't use the whole 10% allocation, the coins are simply not created at that point, but that doesn't mean they are never used in the future. I've always thought of this unused balance as our bank account, it's a dash savings account for a rainy day. By the time we want to access those funds, we'll have a really good reason and they'll be worth a lot. I'd rather incentivize the network to save then to spend."

I was there when you put the proposal to use the unused coins towards Compassion. That is why I don't understand why didn't bring up that point again when talking about the "unused coins" in your previous response. We have a really easy way to use them and don't need to fund any other proposal that pops up.

The precedent would be to have BiblePay giving money to someone to have that someone earn a royalty on BiblePay.

Zazzle take care of everything for you, it produces the products, manages the inventory, deals with payments and returns, etc. You don't even need to spend a monthly fee or anything else. You go there, upload the logo of BBP on a T-shirt and you're done. You receive your profit every time somebody buys it without doing anything hence a "royalty" on the BBP logo. I think that it would have reflected poorly on BBP if we funded it.

On top of that, we can talk about the image issue with some products, the possible negative PR and the most important, the questionable benefits for us.

If you want, we can go into more details on why it would have not attracted new investors for us and instead, BiblePay would actually be the one advertising his shop. (Zazzle users being mostly female, the large majority (all) of crypto investors being male, etc. - and no, it wouldn't have been an "opportunity" to attract female to crypto).

I am not opposed to funding past work. I am saying that someone doing volunteer work takes the risk of having said work not being paid for after. That's all. And no, we don't want you to be a slave...you chose to do work for free...

I'm not sure if you saw the posts before they were edited, but I find it a little bit sad to be accused of "you helped run off someone who was passionate to help the project" as this person has been extremely rude and insulting towards someone who is passionate about the project and gave a lot to it already...saying I am morbid, bad and that I should just leave the community. Yet I didn't see anyone saying anything about that. Would he have the same comment if I was the one leaving?

Yes it a risk that someone could run off with the coins, that's why the proposals need to be carefully examined and have evidence that the person will actually do the work, qualification, etc to try to mitigate the risk. I don't think we will have any big projects done before being funded, only micro-projects.

Having a budget doesn't mean we are freelancer.com. I don't think this is what we want to convey and the people we want to attract.

I actually laid out in my previous responses possible ideas for a better use of the funds. I think bounties and airdrops should be focused on. No, I don't have time right now to execute them.

"I just think that the PR money could be better used. I remember there was mentions of paid ads on websites, facebook, etc. We could have bounties, airdrops which I think would attract new people and would be better use of funds."

I can only speak for me but I see the coin (its image) as an investment for my money that would fit my morale principles.

I am not sure if I forgot to answer anything else but feel free to tell me if I did.


  • 616westwarmoth
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Togo, Alex, you guys along with Rob have been HUGE and are making this coin.  I'm trying to do my part too, sorry in advance on the slowdown in video production.  Part of the issue I see is there are a lot of coins where this kind of work has no budget, so the work comes along slowly by those passionate about the coin.  We're passionate here, don't get me wrong, and we've got a budget so we can use it.  That's why I felt it important to start and maintain the "monthly" budget thread.  So we can see where we're at.

But the thing is decisions we make now, set a pattern.  Losing Alt-J is a bad deal, but part of being passionate is accepting criticism.  I've taken my fair share (thankfully mostly in PMs) and it's discouraging.  But I really didn't see the critique here being a personal attack on Alt-J but rather worry about the future and how we handle this now opening the door to non-passionate users trying to cash in.  So while I don't question Alt-J's motives at all, I do fundamentally think we should not be subsidizing a for-profit venture.   Either make it non-profit (by reducing the margin to zero or by donating the profits in their entirety to the Orphan Fund) in which case I'd be inclined to vote in favor of, or run it for-profit, use our logo without fee and charge enough to make it worth your while so as to not require funding.  Again, there could be certain things in a for-profit venture that trigger funding in my mind, such as if I were to run a pool and start making coding changes.  Yes this would help me, but this is also a benefit to the coin if the coding is contributed back to the community.

We've still go 15 days at least in this cycle.  Webster is talking about a new proposal, Rob hasn't submitted much on the coding side minus PoL.  But it may very well be that we are TOO well funded at this point and the best thing to do is to sluff most of it to the Orphan Fund while the coin is young and hopefully at some of it's lowest valuations.  The danger of setting too many customs or common practices for minimally valued things is, to me, a far worse use of the funds than shifting them to charity or even burning them.

In practice the coin needs to develop a legitimate legal charter.  That way I can transfer ownership of the logos to the Foundation, someone like Alt-J can do the legwork of setting up a Zazzle shop but turn the ownership and profits to the Foundation and perhaps the Foundation can grow beyond the coin to actually be a destination for donations.


  • jaapgvk
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Quote
Either make it non-profit (by reducing the margin to zero or by donating the profits in their entirety to the Orphan Fund) in which case I'd be inclined to vote in favor of, or run it for-profit, use our logo without fee and charge enough to make it worth your while so as to not require funding.

I agree with this. I also responded in the original reddit thread and have been following this discussion (I follow absolutely everything on biblepay, I just don't always reply, sometimes because of time-limitations, sometimes because I don't feel I can make a worthwhile contribution to what has already been said).

While I think it's sad that ALT-J has left, I also questioned his motives in the reddit-thread. Asking money for something you are already making (very easy) money on, especially when you take future sales into account, just seemed a little bit off for me. I think every proposal should be weighed carefully in terms of pro's and con's independently of the amount of BBP asked, and I think this is a big part of being a sanctuary-owner is about.

I agree that some proposals and suggestions get very few responses, but at the same time I'm happy that the responses we do get, are mostly of high quality.