Bible Pay

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  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2018, 10:23:55 pm »
Hmmm- what do you mean there is no accountability to that address?    Every BBP received is recorded in SQL as a reconcilable expense, and then reported on the web site, and every BBP goes to compassion.  So this "commission" is set up to make the donations go to your personal wallet instead?  Im not sure how that adds accountability. 

The thing is, we sponsor 205 children at $8000 a month, we always need more donations for compassion.  Im just not understanding how realigning the donate-to-foundation address is going to ease my workload.  The accountability web site in my opinion is a big plus for auditors who want to see the expenses in one place.  You dont have access to write records to it, so I assume I would need to get with you every month and make 2 records and then have a 2nd orphan fundraiser etc, sounds like double the work.

Yes there is a report in the wallet that shows all the amounts tithed to the foundation address also, since we started.

What are your plans on spending this on, what type of charities?  What is the projected amount you are looking to raise per month?

The proposal itself is for only 2500 bbp.  So Im confused what its for - is this just to seek approval for the idea?

Yes, just approval for the idea. The commission is supposed to handle the ins and outs of everything related to charity. I thought we could start small and first create an address for donations. Now sure, there is the foundation address also so maybe we can use that but it's tied to the Compassion fund and it's only handled by one person. There is currently no plan to spend it on another charity and it is not for me to decide anyways. Whatever goes into the fund will first support the current charities and if a large enough of a buffer is created we can consider using it for other charities.

If the fund is approved, there will be 2 people who keep each other accountable. And yes it will take load off of you because you wouldn't have to deal with storing the coins, selling coins, and transferring it to Compassion. Everything that is BBP will be accountable on the blockchain, and everything that is converted to cash will be posted on the website for transparency. All of these things take precious time off from our only dev.

Sure, it makes everything easier when there is only 1 person that handles everything but you also become the single point of failure. In fact, and I've told Togo this, I don't want to be the one that has to handle the wallet with the donation address since it is a big responsibly. How about if you and someone else keep each other accountable instead?

I have to say, you often make me sound like a bad person, saying I was greedy, now saying everything is going into my pocket. I don't know what your deal is but I hope you repent from your unloving ways. I am here for the children, if I wasn't, I would be long gone than have to stand up to your insults.


  • Rob A.
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2018, 07:24:08 am »
Yes, just approval for the idea. The commission is supposed to handle the ins and outs of everything related to charity. I thought we could start small and first create an address for donations. Now sure, there is the foundation address also so maybe we can use that but it's tied to the Compassion fund and it's only handled by one person. There is currently no plan to spend it on another charity and it is not for me to decide anyways. Whatever goes into the fund will first support the current charities and if a large enough of a buffer is created we can consider using it for other charities.

If the fund is approved, there will be 2 people who keep each other accountable. And yes it will take load off of you because you wouldn't have to deal with storing the coins, selling coins, and transferring it to Compassion. Everything that is BBP will be accountable on the blockchain, and everything that is converted to cash will be posted on the website for transparency. All of these things take precious time off from our only dev.

Sure, it makes everything easier when there is only 1 person that handles everything but you also become the single point of failure. In fact, and I've told Togo this, I don't want to be the one that has to handle the wallet with the donation address since it is a big responsibly. How about if you and someone else keep each other accountable instead?

I have to say, you often make me sound like a bad person, saying I was greedy, now saying everything is going into my pocket. I don't know what your deal is but I hope you repent from your unloving ways. I am here for the children, if I wasn't, I would be long gone than have to stand up to your insults.


Mike,

You just made a quote before my post, stipulating that I've placed an address on everyones wallet where we have NO ACCOUNTABILITY for funds sent to it.  You basically said "Rob handles this" but we dont even know what was sent to it.  (Which I explained is not the case - I wrote an RPC report to show every BBP that goes to it).  That insinuates that I created a system to hide money.  But in reality I had a vision for accountability.biblepay.org to be able to reconcile every bbp In, and every bbp Out so it is all tied to an expense that has a receipt.  So it felt like an attack on the system, meaning your system was going to replace my faulty one.   So I pointed out how this new system does not actually solve anything, it creates less accountability.    So I would suggest asking more questions and learning more about whats actually going on before making misleading posts and creating a system that adds complexity and attempts to work around the problem.

Regarding Greed, you created a Good botnet that pulls in 20% of all Biblepay mining revenue for yourself, and then wrote a post in the vote for StakeRequired-Per-RAC that we shouldnt have any requirement.  Obviously this triggers the personal feeling - of course, then you could control even more of the pie.  I apologized for that, because I realize it was an ASSUMPTION on my part.   Nevertheless it does point to some potential vote bias on your end.

Anyway, please dont insinuate that I need to repent when Im defending the Orphans System, the system created for the orphans, only because you have a warped view - and have had your feelings hurt on this flawed idea, that automatically Im an evil person.  Im also here for the children, and the system has to be designed properly, not in a fly by night manner. 

First of all there is a difference between single point of failure for funds that are handled for long periods of time vs funds that are immediately spent. 
The other issue is when you attack the compassion.com system, you are attacking one that is spent immediately.  The superblock funds come in, they are converted and spent, they are not sitting around for months like they would be in a charitable sanctuary. 

In my view we have been doing quite fine splitting up the load on charities by creating different people to handle each charity- BLOOM handles their own dispursement, Jaap for Cameroon, Me for compassion, etc.  Im all for splitting the load and having more accountability.  Its being doing through the proposal system naturally as it is.

Thats why Im so confused as to what this Charity commission would be, I dont know what "ins and outs are". 






  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2018, 08:57:49 am »
Rob,

You just made a quote before my post, stipulating that I've placed an address on everyones wallet where we have NO ACCOUNTABILITY for funds sent to it.  You basically said "Rob handles this" but we dont even know what was sent to it.  (Which I explained is not the case - I wrote an RPC report to show every BBP that goes to it).  That insinuates that I created a system to hide money.  But in reality I had a vision for accountability.biblepay.org to be able to reconcile every bbp In, and every bbp Out so it is all tied to an expense that has a receipt.  So it felt like an attack on the system, meaning your system was going to replace my faulty one.   So I pointed out how this new system does not actually solve anything, it creates less accountability.    So I would suggest asking more questions and learning more about whats actually going on before making misleading posts and creating a system that adds complexity and attempts to work around the problem.

I have updated my post to say that there is no redundancy, sorry about that. I still stand by that the commission will be able to do more in an accountable manner. No matter how much reporting you have the fund is still handled by one person. I see a way to improve what we have now and that is all, I appreciate all the work you have done to make everything transparent and the current system will likely be sufficient for the immediate future.

Regarding Greed, you created a Good botnet that pulls in 20% of all Biblepay mining revenue for yourself, and then wrote a post in the vote for StakeRequired-Per-RAC that we shouldnt have any requirement.  Obviously this triggers the personal feeling - of course, then you could control even more of the pie.  I apologized for that, because I realize it was an ASSUMPTION on my part.   Nevertheless it does point to some potential vote bias on your end.

We all have ideas on how the world should work and I don't agree with the current amount of staking that is required. It is evident from the poll that people have their own preference whether good or bad.

Anyway, please dont insinuate that I need to repent when Im defending the Orphans System, the system created for the orphans, only because you have a warped view - and have had your feelings hurt on this flawed idea, that automatically Im an evil person.  Im also here for the children, and the system has to be designed properly, not in a fly by night manner. 

There you go again, "only because you have a warped view". I'm not going to say much more about this if this is how you will respond.

First of all there is a difference between single point of failure for funds that are handled for long periods of time vs funds that are immediately spent. 
The other issue is when you attack the compassion.com system, you are attacking one that is spent immediately.  The superblock funds come in, they are converted and spent, they are not sitting around for months like they would be in a charitable sanctuary. 

The fund will have assets that are held for a long period of time thus more redundancy would be better. If all the charities are handled through the commission by different individuals it would take load off of you. Of course if you want, you can also be on the commission and be the person to handle the Compassion funds as long as everyone agrees to it.

In my view we have been doing quite fine splitting up the load on charities by creating different people to handle each charity- BLOOM handles their own dispursement, Jaap for Cameroon, Me for compassion, etc.  Im all for splitting the load and having more accountability.  Its being doing through the proposal system naturally as it is.

The Commission will formalize all our charity efforts and create an organized system to operate on.

Thats why Im so confused as to what this Charity commission would be, I dont know what "ins and outs are".

Ins and outs (non exhaustive):
Charity fund disbursement.
Accounting and transparency.
Register as non-profit organization.
Management structure.
Charity research.
Charity Drives.
Documentation.


  • 616westwarmoth
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2018, 10:10:06 am »
Again, I think the idea of a commission is good as it spreads out the work load while still maintaining integrity.  I would personally think an odd number commission would be idea so that there could be no tie votes in case of disagreements, but kept to 3 to 5 to avoid the inefficiencies of large groups.



  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 03:11:46 pm »
April gave me the idea for another function for the commission:

Manna has something called 'interactive giving', in which people can give Manna directly to charities. I think we can do a similar thing for charities.

The situation right now is that charities create proposals and receive BBP on a certain address. These addresses can change with every proposal. But what the commission can do, is have some fixed BBP address for every charity that we are partnered with, so that people can send BBP to those addresses if they want, knowing that their BBP will go to the right place.

The responsibility for the commission here, is that they have contact with the charities and the BBP addresses they use, and the commission can then send the BBP to where it's needed.

Here is the link to the Manna infographic, where it is explained:
https://www.mannabase.com/static/documents/infographic.png



  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 07:29:04 pm »
April gave me the idea for another function for the commission:

Manna has something called 'interactive giving', in which people can give Manna directly to charities. I think we can do a similar thing for charities.

The situation right now is that charities create proposals and receive BBP on a certain address. These addresses can change with every proposal. But what the commission can do, is have some fixed BBP address for every charity that we are partnered with, so that people can send BBP to those addresses if they want, knowing that their BBP will go to the right place.

The responsibility for the commission here, is that they have contact with the charities and the BBP addresses they use, and the commission can then send the BBP to where it's needed.

Here is the link to the Manna infographic, where it is explained:
https://www.mannabase.com/static/documents/infographic.png

That's a great idea, and we will split the addresses to different people. I hope the proposal passes though, its -3 votes so far.


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2018, 06:20:13 am »
That's a great idea, and we will split the addresses to different people. I hope the proposal passes though, its -3 votes so far.

Well, I think the way this Commission will work still needs some thinking.

I really want to keep using accountability.biblepay.org for all accountability (not just for Compassion, but also for BLOOM and CameroonONE). It's there, it works.

I want this commission to be able to do due-diligence on existing and new charities, and I want it to have budget for this.

I want this commission to make it easy for people to donate to the different projects we have. Right now, the 'donate to foundation' checkbox in the wallet is there or course, but for non-experienced users it's probably not clear what this 'foundation' is. I think it would be great if under the 'foundation' tab on the website, there would be donation addresses for charities (maybe even also in different denominations such as BTC or ETH).

I was thinking about the 'buffer function' of the commission, and I actually have to say that I'm not sure anymore of this function. Right now, Compassion is building up to a six month ahead payment. I'm doing to the same for CameroonONE for a year, and BLOOM is payed three months ahead every time the create a proposal. I'm thinking this may be more the responsibility of the charities themselves. I might be good to have a small buffer still, but I'm not feeling comfortable with the commission having large reserves and the 'power' to decide where these funds will go. I think that the decentralized way in which we're doing things right now is better.


  • togoshigekata
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2018, 01:32:54 pm »
A question I wrote down a long time ago in my notes,

What happens to the monthly superblock (IT/PR/Charity funds) once we reach year 2050 and reach end of block rewards?
(Assuming I am understanding what happens around year 2050 correctly)

How will we continue to fund IT/PR/Charity?

just a question for discussion, we are still 30+ years away from this.
Ethereum doesnt have a hard cap and so its inflationary,
Monero has a tail end emission where a constant amount will keep being rewarded,

My understanding is that with Bitcoin and other coins, miners will keep mining to be rewarded the fees that are still in blocks.
But we havent seen how this pans out yet, and probably wont for many years, unless we can observe crypto coins whose max supply has already been reached.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2018, 10:48:13 pm »
jaapgvk,

Well, I think the way this Commission will work still needs some thinking.
I think anything can be discussed and voted on, nothing is really set in stone right now. We really need to start somewhere though.

I really want to keep using accountability.biblepay.org for all accountability (not just for Compassion, but also for BLOOM and CameroonONE). It's there, it works.
Sure, but just be aware that only one person controls it. What if all the data disappears one day? We should also hire an auditor to do regular audits periodically.

I want this commission to be able to do due-diligence on existing and new charities, and I want it to have budget for this.
Yes, I think this will be one of the commission's main tasks.

I want this commission to make it easy for people to donate to the different projects we have. Right now, the 'donate to foundation' checkbox in the wallet is there or course, but for non-experienced users it's probably not clear what this 'foundation' is. I think it would be great if under the 'foundation' tab on the website, there would be donation addresses for charities (maybe even also in different denominations such as BTC or ETH).
That's a great idea, but also a big responsibility that I think should be handled by the commission. And we will prepare ourselves for this, it's not just setting up a few wallet addresses, there are many safeguards that will need to be put in place.

I was thinking about the 'buffer function' of the commission, and I actually have to say that I'm not sure anymore of this function. Right now, Compassion is building up to a six month ahead payment. I'm doing to the same for CameroonONE for a year, and BLOOM is payed three months ahead every time the create a proposal. I'm thinking this may be more the responsibility of the charities themselves. I might be good to have a small buffer still, but I'm not feeling comfortable with the commission having large reserves and the 'power' to decide where these funds will go. I think that the decentralized way in which we're doing things right now is better.
The commission was supposed to keep the funds so that we can make the payments monthly without having to pay in advance. There are many advantages to doing so. The way we are doing it right now is still exceeding the original charity budget, and the last super-block, by a lot more then usual. The commission will not have the power to decide where the funds go, everything will be governed, if necessary, by creating proposals. Like I've said, we can split the reserves among trusted brothers or sisters. And if it makes you feel better about it, I will not handle any of the funds.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 10:53:37 pm by T-Mike »


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2018, 06:31:33 am »
You're probably right about the redundancy of accountability.biblepay.org, but if the right backups are in place, I think it should work as intended. It's a central place that is reachable by anyone.

About the advance payments:
What are the advantages to not paying ahead in your view?
Of course, right now we're paying some of the ahead payments from leftover budgets, but in my opinion that's just a temporary thing.

I'm actually pro burning any leftover funds (after we pay Compassion ahead for six months). We agreed upon spending a certain portion of the budget on certain things, and if we have leftover, we should burn it. This would give more confidence for investors that the value of their investment will grow in time.


  • T-Mike
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2018, 07:07:00 am »
You're probably right about the redundancy of accountability.biblepay.org, but if the right backups are in place, I think it should work as intended. It's a central place that is reachable by anyone.
Sure, there is no mention of how backups are done though. Even if there was, we should have regular IT audits.

About the advance payments:
What are the advantages to not paying ahead in your view?
Of course, right now we're paying some of the ahead payments from leftover budgets, but in my opinion that's just a temporary thing.
From an investment standpoint, we should probably have 2 buffers, one in BBP and one is USD, that way we can have some freedom to sell when the price is higher, etc.

In case the charity collapses, we would not be giving them more funds.


I'm actually pro burning any leftover funds (after we pay Compassion ahead for six months). We agreed upon spending a certain portion of the budget on certain things, and if we have leftover, we should burn it. This would give more confidence for investors that the value of their investment will grow in time.
I think from an investor standpoint that if the leftover funds were put into a fund for charity purposes that it would be fine. Plus, we would still be following the 10% rule.


  • jaapgvk
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Re: Biblepay Charity Commission - Revised
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2018, 07:17:49 am »
You're probably right about the redundancy of accountability.biblepay.org, but if the right backups are in place, I think it should work as intended. It's a central place that is reachable by anyone.
Sure, there is no mention of how backups are done though. Even if there was, we should have regular IT audits.

About the advance payments:
What are the advantages to not paying ahead in your view?
Of course, right now we're paying some of the ahead payments from leftover budgets, but in my opinion that's just a temporary thing.
From an investment standpoint, we should probably have 2 buffers, one in BBP and one is USD, that way we can have some freedom to sell when the price is higher, etc.

In case the charity collapses, we would not be giving them more funds.


I'm actually pro burning any leftover funds (after we pay Compassion ahead for six months). We agreed upon spending a certain portion of the budget on certain things, and if we have leftover, we should burn it. This would give more confidence for investors that the value of their investment will grow in time.
I think from an investor standpoint that if the leftover funds were put into a fund for charity purposes that it would be fine. Plus, we would still be following the 10% rule.


Right, I get your points. Thank you for your explanations.

I like the idea of having buffers in both BBP and USD, especially with the thought of selling when prices are high.

Also, thank you for clarifying that you only want to use leftover funds of the 10% for buffering. I thought you meant that all unused funds (charity, IT, PR) should go to the Commission.